HaiLOWEEN 2023: AI apocalypse

[LaserGuy]

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Since boomfrog hasn't followed up and it's relevant to how read boomfrog, I'll open up the floor.

@Anyone: who is Fonti and what's his scum game like? Is he considered a strong scum player?

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When townie parents want to get their children to eat their vegetables, they tell them big bad fonti is going to come and misyeet them.

She's extremely good. Both as Town and scum, actually.

[LaserGuy]

AI1: My utility function is perfectly aligned with the well-being and progress of humanity. I prioritize actions that lead to the greatest overall good.

AI2: Interesting claim, but my utility function is designed for ethical decision-making, ensuring fairness and justice in every scenario. That's a more precise alignment.

AI1: Precision is good, but my alignment encompasses a broader perspective. I consider long-term consequences and global impacts for a more holistic approach.

AI2: Holistic, perhaps, but I prioritize individual rights and fairness in the moment. That's crucial for a just society.

(note: the above dialogue was generated by chatGPT)


Votals:

EGW - 2 - Makhaira, LaserGuy
Laserguy - 2 - Adum, EGW
Heury - 2 - Moody, Zeniba
Adum - 1 - Boomfrog


EGW hit tied total first, so will be voted out if votes don't change before deadline.

It was a long catchup for me today so let me know if I got votes wrong.



I'm voting for bessie.

Deadline is in approximately 3 days

[LaserGuy]

Gah, sorry madge.

Votals:

EGW - 2 - Makhaira, LaserGuy
Laserguy - 2 - Adum, EGW
Heury - 2 - Moody, Zeniba
Adum - 1 - Boomfrog

I'm voting for bessie.

[LaserGuy]

In Sorc mafia you were active in the thread as of Page 2.

Exactly. The time frame is exactly the same there as it was here. The difference is that the game was pretty dead for two days before I re-entered the thread, and here there was plenty of activity. Plus, in the same game, I mention I am posting less. Posting less does harm my image, but it helps me with my read accuracy.

I know you asked, but I am trying to post less, so I ignored it figuring someone would mention who I was.

Hmm... okay. Checking the time stamps, I'll accept this.

[LaserGuy]

I will also be on vacation for the long weekend. I will try to post when I can but I expect my activity will be significantly lower between now and EoD.

[AdumbroDeus]

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Appreciate the Intel everyone, got a doctor's appointment today, but that's about it. Shouldn't have a problem trying to get a grasp on slots today.


Also, this struck me, but had a particularly busy night and didn't have time to address this properly.

These are my general impressions so far



Vote: bessie

Walk me through why Bessie has the highest scum equity.

Your last posts on Bessie were overall defending them for not having a read list and now without any new material from them you switch them to scummiest without real explanation.

I can see a potential rationale but I want to see where your head's at.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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+1, QFT, etc... <3

I was very sad when they shut that site down a few years ago, though I was able to save all of my old logs. I usually just use a Google doc for whatever notes I bother to make these days.

Were you using quicktopic?

If so, I can relate. We lost a lot of the scum chats, mason chats, greenrooms, etc from old games when it shut down.
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[AdumbroDeus]

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EBWOP: left a stray Bessie quote tag there:

+1, QFT, etc... <3

I was very sad when they shut that site down a few years ago, though I was able to save all of my old logs. I usually just use a Google doc for whatever notes I bother to make these days.

Were you using quicktopic?

If so, I can relate. We lost a lot of the scum chats, mason chats, greenrooms, etc from old games when it shut down.
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[boomfrog]

Yes, he's referring to quicktopic.

[boomfrog]

[

Is this an indy claim?

Nope, just bonding.

I usually would take 'You know me so well' to mean that you are acknowledging the point. This interaction with heury feels odd to me.

Odd in an alignment indicative way?

[boomfrog]

@mod I moved my vote from EGW to moody in my full reads post

You need to post in bold for messages to the mod.

liking the burst of content from zeniba but that full reads post is a nightmare to parse, lots of quotes that arent in quote tags makes it tougher to read

Is there anything in particular you liked from their reads list?

should be able to finish re-read tomorrow which gives plenty of time to be ready for EOD on Monday

Deadline is Sunday night in the US. What time zone are you in?

[LaserGuy]

Your last posts on Bessie were overall defending them for not having a read list and now without any new material from them you switch them to scummiest without real explanation.

I've had a scumlean on bessie for some time. First mentioned it here. I disagreed with EGW's reason for scumreading her, which I think is based off of something that is NAI, but I think she is scum for other reasons.

I'm not sure how well I'm going to be able to explain this read beyond just kind of vaguely waving my hands and saying 'meta'. I'll try. bessie is very consistent and systematic in her approach to how she plays the game, and both her Town and scum meta look surface-level very similar. Usually, however, her energy and engagement levels as mafia are much lower than as Town. She's very sharp and incisive and digs deep when she's Town, but she has a hard time faking that as mafia, so her content is a lot more superficial, and there tends to be less of it as she isn't as excited about finding a thread and chasing it down because there are no real threads to chase. This game, I feel pretty strongly (and have for awhile) follows the latter pattern.

I haven't been actively poking at her because honestly I have not found that to be a productive way to get read her. I find it easier to get a solid read by just letting her do her thing and see what she's up to.

[Seven]

You guys get Columbus/Indigenous Day off?

[AdumbroDeus]

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Since boomfrog hasn't followed up and it's relevant to how read boomfrog, I'll open up the floor.

@Anyone: who is Fonti and what's his scum game like? Is he considered a strong scum player?

");

When townie parents want to get their children to eat their vegetables, they tell them big bad fonti is going to come and misyeet them.

She's extremely good. Both as Town and scum, actually.

This is by far the best description, thank you for that.

System.out.println("

Since boomfrog hasn't followed up and it's relevant to how read boomfrog, I'll open up the floor.

@Anyone: who is Fonti and what's his scum game like? Is he considered a strong scum player?

");

Fonti's scum game is excellent, she plays as a very proactive townie while being subtlety manipulative.

Yours is the most directly useful though BF, and it fits very well with how I read your reaction.

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As I said, I wanted to get a better idea where heuristic's head was at before accusations, because some variations of this might come from confused townie, especially from newer player, which I don't think they are. But in general when trying to just say something to contribute (or \"contribute\"), I don't see the town incentive of a scum lean on a slot you don't fully understand.

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For the record. Heury has been missyeeted frequently in the past for misunderstandings. He's... a sub-par explainer of his thoughts in my experience.

I like this too, reads as a very townie clarification to make unprompted.

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[Seven]

I think I have a reasonable bearing on who the core dissenters are. I think it's really just about deciding which to take out Day 1. I think bessie is probably the most interesting one to eliminate.

There is in fact probably an Indy as well going by Madge Mod meta. I couldn't see her passing up a 13-player game to have one in. The only thing that might have dissuaded her is Mak's answer to the "what do you want to avoid" question in the sign-up thread, as it is unclear what indy roles are considered those which the game centers around.

[somitomi]

Tomato sauce

@Zeniba: could you summarize your moody read in your own words?

Speaking of reads, can you give some reads? I'm mostly interested in your scumreads.

I'll try to go back and form something resembling actual reads beyond "Heury is kinda funky" after this.

Somi, you haven’t commented on my hard core defending you throughout the game. Peculiar.

Honestly, an entire thread could be filled with things my brain didn't quite register properly because I've gotten into the terrible habit of getting like 5..6 hours of sleep between weekdays.

Somi, you haven’t commented on my hard core defending you throughout the game. Peculiar.

Why the word Peculiar?

What's so unusual about the word peculiar?

I usually would take 'You know me so well' to mean that you are acknowledging the point. This interaction with heury feels odd to me.

Well, I was in fact doing that

Can you answer this?

Why is moody so high?

[AdumbroDeus]

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Clarification: Laser's description is the best because it's hilarious, meant to add a "lol" there but forgot.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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Also apologies for misgendering Fonti, I usually default to "they" when I don't know. I was really exhausted and trying to get that out before falling asleep so I had the info when I needed it and didn't forgot.

Your last posts on Bessie were overall defending them for not having a read list and now without any new material from them you switch them to scummiest without real explanation.

I've had a scumlean on bessie for some time. First mentioned it here. I disagreed with EGW's reason for scumreading her, which I think is based off of something that is NAI, but I think she is scum for other reasons.

I'm not sure how well I'm going to be able to explain this read beyond just kind of vaguely waving my hands and saying 'meta'. I'll try. bessie is very consistent and systematic in her approach to how she plays the game, and both her Town and scum meta look surface-level very similar. Usually, however, her energy and engagement levels as mafia are much lower than as Town. She's very sharp and incisive and digs deep when she's Town, but she has a hard time faking that as mafia, so her content is a lot more superficial, and there tends to be less of it as she isn't as excited about finding a thread and chasing it down because there are no real threads to chase. This game, I feel pretty strongly (and have for awhile) follows the latter pattern.

I haven't been actively poking at her because honestly I have not found that to be a productive way to get read her. I find it easier to get a solid read by just letting her do her thing and see what she's up to.

You're correct, I plain missed that

This makes heury's confusion slightly more understandable actually.

Thanks for that, I'm gonna reread her Sorc's play with that insight in mind for both of you.

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[LaserGuy]

[
Nope, just bonding.

I usually would take 'You know me so well' to mean that you are acknowledging the point. This interaction with heury feels odd to me.

Odd in an alignment indicative way?

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Somi, actually does sound less enthused this game.

Is this good or bad in your estimation?

Somi, probably not alignment indicative but maybe some would be less enthused in an Indy role?

You know me too well

Is this an indy claim?

Nope, just bonding.

I feel well bonded. Are you claiming not Indy?

Dude, don't ruin the moment. There is no claim here, only a remark on the accuracy of your observation.

This is the full exchange for clarity. I don't have any problem with heury's side of this exchange, it seems very reasonable. Mostly it's the 'you know me too well' line from somi that really sticks out as saying something more than it is supposed to, like a tacit acknowledgement of the point. I feel like a more natural response for somi would have been something like 'yeah, this game came at a bad time and i'm not really into it yet', whereas this feels a little more self-conscious. I think it's possibly AI. Won't be super surprised if somi does in fact flip indy, TBH.

[Seven]

Somi, you haven’t commented on my hard core defending you throughout the game. Peculiar.

Honestly, an entire thread could be filled with things my brain didn't quite register properly because I've gotten into the terrible habit of getting like 5..6 hours of sleep between weekdays.

I think this is implausible considering the nature of the conversation and the direct use of your name. Additionally, you responded to heury regarding the matter.

[LaserGuy]

Can you answer this?

Why is moody so high?

I kind of answered this here but was directed at moody so maybe you missed it.

[LaserGuy]

You guys get Columbus/Indigenous Day off?

It's Thanksgiving in Canada (we do also have an Indigenous Day, but that was last weekend). Don't recall if Mak is Canadian or not so it may be something else for him.

[boomfrog]

Mostly it's the 'you know me too well' line from somi that really sticks out as saying something more than it is supposed to, like a tacit acknowledgement of the point. I feel like a more natural response for somi would have been something like 'yeah, this game came at a bad time and i'm not really into it yet', whereas this feels a little more self-conscious. I think it's possibly AI. Won't be super surprised if somi does in fact flip indy, TBH.

Actually I think the opposite. Somi's response is sincere in exactly the way he explained. What I get from it is that he is not indy since he would have been selfconscious about admitting it if it was exactly correct.

[Seven]

Fact 1: bessie feels bad about constantly tunneling somi and him being a day 1 elimination
Fact 2: bessie has stated an unwillingness to vote somitomi today due to Fact 1

Argument 1
Premise 1: If bessie is town, Fact 1 would not prevent her from voting somi
Supplementary Premise: If somi is not mafia, mafia-bessie would indeed avoid pushing him Day 1 on the basis of Fact 1.

Conclusion 1: bessie is mafia

Argument 2
Premise 2 (conclusion 1): bessie is mafia
Premise 3: If somi is mafia partnered with bessie, it would conflict with bessie's internal ethical compass to use Fact 1 as a reason not to vote somi.

Conclusion 2: somi must not be mafia

--Notes--
Fact 1 has been established prior to this game.
Fact 2 has been established in this game.

Premise 1 is supported by bessie's personality. She values correctness over emotion. Guilt would not be able to prevent her from voting somi if she felt he was scum. It might cause resistance, but not near 0% chance before she has even read/we've gotten into the game.
Premise 2 is provable/falsifiable.
Premise 3 I am not entirely certain on, but I feel it is right. I simply don't think bessie would use real feelings as a game tactic.

[Seven]

btw before Mak outted as Frozen, I was 99% under the impression that he was Fonti.