HaiLOWEEN 2023: AI apocalypse

[AdumbroDeus]

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Yeah, I want to say sorry for seeming like I was being difficult. I really didn't want to claim for two reasons...

One being that BF flipped bodyguard on night one and I wasn't sure how people would react to me claiming the same role.

Second was because I didn't want to become an early target for a night kill.

You really did a great job, and I felt protecting you was the best option to get us a town win.

You made the correct choice not to reveal it, I was only bringing it up because it seemed to come from an ideological reason rather than a practical reason, but your decision was 100% right in context.

I really hated doing that, because I'm not a big confrontational person, but I felt making it seem like I was doing it because I had a useful role would also draw unwanted attention. So definitely sorry about that, because I wanted to kick myself for doing it that way.

That is pretty much why I made the comment about revealing if Bessie did. There were comments about her not really being big on claiming, so I felt I could hide behind that and hopefully drop the back and forth about me claiming subject... then prayed Bessie wouldn't claim.

That was extremely smart, nice job.

[LaserGuy]

Shout outs:

Freddino/Zeniba: This was a tough, very fast paced game, so I understand not being able to participate fully. I would have liked to have seen more out of you, and hopefully we can get you into a game that is a little more relaxed where you have the chance to sink your teeth in a little more.

BoomFrog: You are always so tricky as Town and I'm never comfortable with you when I'm scum. I think you played a very solid D1 and had great reads and I have no regret about strongmanning you

heury: I'm very impressed that you somehow managed to convince several players that you were a mason with an unaligned player. I'm honestly not sure if this was on purpose or not, but I think it was probably strategically pretty clever for your role. Unjester is a very unforgiving role and difficult role to play especially given how many really strong PRs were in this game. I think you had an uphill battle here regardless of what you did.

EGW: I think you were pretty much the only player to read me correctly spot-on from the start (though I will still insist I think your baseline opinion of my play might not be entirely accurate), and I felt you were enough of a threat that I pushed for your kill N2 despite it possibly coming back to me (I didn't know you were the doc, but you were one of the candidates). Both your reads and your overall scum play were very solid.

Gluelock: I think you really played a great game and your demise D3 was a real tragedy for Town. I think both somi and I in scumchat were like 'wtf, how did the towniest slot in the game just get eliminated?' immediately after. I hope you will play more with us as I think you have great instincts and would be an excellent addition to our community.

Seven: As usual, you played a great game and had very solid insights. Like BoomFrog, you were the other player that I was very happy to get rid of as soon as I possibly could because I knew that sooner or later you would catch us out and I kinda just had to hope I could kill you before then.

Makheira: I think you were dealt a very tough hand with Zeniba going in D1 and EGW paying too much attention to me to ignore D2 and I understand the lack of motivation going forward especially in such a fast paced game, and I think not having a reasonable safeclaim left you in a pretty precarious position, and ultimately led to your demise, more than anything you actually said in game, which I think for the most part I found pretty reasonable.

JC: I think you played very smart with your role and did a good job keeping yourself looking townie enough to stay out of trouble. I'm curious, did you use the killing power of your role ever? D3, I guess. I think you probably had some very good chances where you could have scored a hit there and it may have only been luck that we missed it if you had used it.

Somi: I think you played a really great game and did a fantastic job of both looking townie throughout and distancing perfectly throughout. As I said in scumchat, the endgame was essentially decided entirely by your content, so you played about as perfectly as you could. I'm sorry I didn't consider the possibility of Adum going after you with the chat cop... I'm not sure there was anything we could have done about that given what we knew (especially since even if we had roleblocked Adum he would have gotten that power, which, wtf that is absurd), but it was a dumb oversight and I was sad to see you going out like that.

Adum: You played a really brilliant game and your insights and instincts are incredibly sharp. You were pretty much always on the table as a NK target for us and I think if you had been even an iota more familiar with the playerbase you probably would have caught us easily (or been summarily dismissed much earlier). I am excited to play with you again some time.

bessie: That was a difficult LYLO and I really didn't want to have to put you in the hot seat of having to choose between me or moody, but that's just kind of how things ended up. You may be pleased to hear that you somehow managed to break my bessie-is-scum radar since I genuinely thought you were on the other mafia pretty much right until Mak flipped.

Moody: I think you played a solid game and I think you were pulled down more by a scummy meta than anything else--I pretty much had you as Town for the whole game and never really had any reason to doubt the read. I'm not sure it would have helped in this instance, but I think it probably would have been more worth your while to take the fight to me in LYLO when I tried to deflect your result. You knew I was mafia and that I was lying, you may as well have gone for it. It may not have made a difference to bessie, but I don't think doing nothing did you any favours.

Madge and Sabrar: This was a really enjoyable game and you guys did a wonderful job modding it. The flavour was fantastic, as always.

[AdumbroDeus]

I referenced wanting to discuss a few metagame topics post-game, mostly cause I didn't wanna clog the thread itself with them when we had to scumhunt.

1. The confirmation post thing: I am fully aware that there was a legendary scumhunter in the community who could get people from confirmation posts... but it requires having an actual understanding of how they would connect to scum thought processes, y'all are very clearly trying to force it. Oh, and I forgot to mention this but I interpreted rules just like Seven suggested @Bessie. That "don't play before D1 starts" was specifically directed at the confirmation meta and asked for generic confirmation posts.

2. Town want to learn secrets too, because the more information they have the better their analysis of the conditions creating other player's decisions will be which in turn let's them better understand other player's alignment.

3. EVERYBODY cares how they're seen, town or scum. Convincing yourself to put that aside because your personal survival is irrelevant compared to your wincon, is a force of will. But sometimes it's to a townie's advantage to be seen a particular way, eg I wanted to attract attention from protective roles this game.

4. Acknowledging when somebody voted you: I really can't see a justification for this. It seems like a meta choice that encourages fake contribution and more subtle attempts to understand people's thought process.

5. Would I do that as scum: this may be more of a subtle thing but I think people are being overly mechanical. The point is to avoid wine when doing an action that obviously advantages scum, but town will see. Pulling it out when somebody points out that their behavior wouldn't advantage scum misunderstands the point. Similar story with pointing out somebody is misstating your scum meta.

6: RNG: ok, why is this considered acceptable outside of things like using it as a threat to cover multiple roles with a doc protect or the like? I genuinely don't think this is playing to your wincon.

Already touched on the claim thing.

[AdumbroDeus]

Shout-out:

Somitomi - you played really cleverly this game, it was incredibly hard to figure out what your thought process was. The only real headway I got was figuring out why both of us weren't targeted when we were both obvious targets. Very good game overall.

Moody - you just played so disconnected, it was very frustrating to play with you and I wish you took more initiative because the margins were so razer thin.

LaserGuy - Great scum play, I had you on my radar but both times you were the obvious choice you managed to make yourself unyeetable, your manipulations were really subtle and barely noticeable. And you weren't moved by my fake confidence in you. Overall just intensely good play.

Bessie - really smart play the vast majority of the game, I just wish your schedule wasn't so restrictive cause you're a joy to play with when you're actually there. Particularly towards the end where we didn't get to get that question answered that would've revealed laser scum (and looking at the role PM wording, I think it would've). Oh ya, and I guess I place far more importance on the thoughts of dead players than most people, but generally I had long term issues with being a Cassandra in games.

Fredd/Zeniba - both of you were unfortunately barely in the game

Boom - enjoyed sparring with you. And no apology dances needed, wish you'd stay later though. I really appreciated your analysis, it was incredibly helpful throughout the rest of the game. Oh and you need to confirm that you're not my boyfriend cause apparently because a couple of people think we're dating somehow. You're not secretly Alejandro, right?

heury - not much to say tbh, I feel like you had the option to have really natural thought processes because of your role but you never actually managed it. Disappointing that you didn't get to give us your role details before you died.

EGW - I feel like you could do with better organizing your thoughts and paying a bit more attention to minor details in the game. But you were on laser, which was good.

Gluelock - you didn't deserve to die at all, that yeet was so bad. I'm sorry, you played a great game

Seven - it was frustrating in the beginning but I came to enjoy your eclectic style of play. Would enjoy another game soon. You were very sharp this game.

Makhaira - sad that you barely played this game but you might have cost town it by that quickhammer

JC - I would've liked to hear more from you during the day but you played your role very smartly and that was a really intelligent way to defend not claiming. Overall a solid performance.

Mods: in spite of my balance complaints it was a fun game. I was constantly looking forward to new flavor as well.

[Freddino18]

Thank you for the pony! I know I participated very little and dipped almost immediately, but there was no way I was going to keep up with such an active game with my schedule.

[Freddino18]

I found this in my files while trying to set my PFP (what a process it was this time. Stupid formatting)

I think it would be perfect for Snipe

rarity.png (213.72 KiB) Viewed 22257 times

[boomfrog]

Being strong manned N1 is the greatest compliment a townie can get.

I will not confirm or deny if I'm dating AdumbroDeus. But Alejandro is a cool name.

My pony is amazing but I'm at larp and can't compress it enough to use as an avatar.

[LaserGuy]

Here's our scumchat for anyone interested:
https://discord.gg/4E532UBEP

[Seven]

I referenced wanting to discuss a few metagame topics post-game, mostly cause I didn't wanna clog the thread itself with them when we had to scumhunt.

1. The confirmation post thing: I am fully aware that there was a legendary scumhunter in the community who could get people from confirmation posts... but it requires having an actual understanding of how they would connect to scum thought processes, y'all are very clearly trying to force it. Oh, and I forgot to mention this but I interpreted rules just like Seven suggested @Bessie. That "don't play before D1 starts" was specifically directed at the confirmation meta and asked for generic confirmation posts.

2. Town want to learn secrets too, because the more information they have the better their analysis of the conditions creating other player's decisions will be which in turn let's them better understand other player's alignment.

3. EVERYBODY cares how they're seen, town or scum. Convincing yourself to put that aside because your personal survival is irrelevant compared to your wincon, is a force of will. But sometimes it's to a townie's advantage to be seen a particular way, eg I wanted to attract attention from protective roles this game.

4. Acknowledging when somebody voted you: I really can't see a justification for this. It seems like a meta choice that encourages fake contribution and more subtle attempts to understand people's thought process.

5. Would I do that as scum: this may be more of a subtle thing but I think people are being overly mechanical. The point is to avoid wine when doing an action that obviously advantages scum, but town will see. Pulling it out when somebody points out that their behavior wouldn't advantage scum misunderstands the point. Similar story with pointing out somebody is misstating your scum meta.

6: RNG: ok, why is this considered acceptable outside of things like using it as a threat to cover multiple roles with a doc protect or the like? I genuinely don't think this is playing to your wincon.

Already touched on the claim thing.

I agree with everything, though I do think there are times I can identify scum as early as their confirmation posts because I'm that good. I was being facetious here though. I also don't think there's anything negative for acknowledging when someone votes you? That's just bessie's style of being meticulous in addressing everything that is relevant to her. On the RNG, I was joking. I was just giving Blue some wiggle room to play around.

[Seven]

Confirm

Confirm

Thank you guys for accepting my invite! I hope you enjoyed the game. You're always welcome here, and I see JC already joined the next game :)

[AdumbroDeus]

I agree with everything, though I do think there are times I can identify scum as early as their confirmation posts because I'm that good. I was being facetious here though. I also don't think there's anything negative for acknowledging when someone votes you? That's just bessie's style of being meticulous in addressing everything that is relevant to her. On the RNG, I was joking. I was just giving Blue some wiggle room to play around.

Didn't say you can't figure out scum with confirmation post. The issue is people are trying to squeeze blood from a stone because it's expected because they're expecting some variation to fit scum thought processes all the time, they just need to figure out what. All these seems to do is make people more guarded with the confirmation posts regardless of alignment and reduces the chance people will drop anything AI in their confirmation.

The reason I figured vote acknowledgements were meta was because boomfrog seemed to expect it too. I don't think it's bad per say, but thinking that not doing it is scummy is bad. It also can verge into fake content and having a standard that expects them will encourage that fake content as a result.

I know, but it reminded me of Prince J seriously using RNG in Sorc's though.

Being strong manned N1 is the greatest compliment a townie can get.

I will not confirm or deny if I'm dating AdumbroDeus. But Alejandro is a cool name.

My pony is amazing but I'm at larp and can't compress it enough to use as an avatar.

Welp, time to prod my boyfriend if he knows about boomfrog. He's more a turtle fan though...

Inb4 you make a "boomturtle" account.

Oh and btw, I edited your pony to avatar standards for you!

ef4wJaM(2).png (78.14 KiB) Viewed 22215 times

[Seven]

I agree with everything, though I do think there are times I can identify scum as early as their confirmation posts because I'm that good. I was being facetious here though. I also don't think there's anything negative for acknowledging when someone votes you? That's just bessie's style of being meticulous in addressing everything that is relevant to her. On the RNG, I was joking. I was just giving Blue some wiggle room to play around.

Didn't say you can't figure out scum with confirmation post. The issue is people are trying to squeeze blood from a stone because it's expected because they're expecting some variation to fit scum thought processes all the time, they just need to figure out what. All these seems to do is make people more guarded with the confirmation posts regardless of alignment and reduces the chance people will drop anything AI in their confirmation.

Gotcha. I don't know how seriously bessie was taking it but I had interpreted it as us just having a bit of fun. I don't think bessie would put so much weight in a confirmation post that she would eliminate someone for it outside of more solid content.

The reason I figured vote acknowledgements were meta was because boomfrog seemed to expect it too. I don't think it's bad per say, but thinking that not doing it is scummy is bad. It also can verge into fake content and having a standard that expects them will encourage that fake content as a result.

Gotcha, I don't know the context so can't speak to it.

I know, but it reminded me of Prince J seriously using RNG in Sorc's though.

To clarify this, J only used RNG night 0 where there was no content to go off of. Then he went AFK so I continued to RNG it as it was a compulsory action.

[Seven]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting. George has the highest town win rate among the Dgame players. I don't think your perception of him is correct.

[bessie]

Congratulations to LaserGuy and somitomi on winning, and to everyone that played; you all played very well!


Bark up!

I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

Sorry moody, I was 50/50 on you and Laser. I didn’t really consider your claim because either you were telling the truth, or you were lying, and there was no way to prove either. So my final analysis was all based on prior content.

I'm really disappointed this is what you answered in my post, instead of answering my night action question and going back to the chat logs to figure why it was relevant. Or asking for Laser to claim their last ability first.

There was no point in asking Laser to claim his ability in endgame. Kinda same reason I didn’t really consider moody’s night result. Laser was going to lie, or he was going to tell the truth, and there would be no way to know which one it was. For the record, I thought LaserGuy’s unclaimed ability was bulletproof.

I'll feel a lot better if you tell me the endgame comparison power don't take it into account night actions, because it genuinely would would suck if the reason why we lost was you didn't get to answer the question because you weren't able to stay on long enough to give more than one real post on the nights I was asking about it and that game day didn't include any weekend time.

I was trying to find time to come back to the thread but with taking care of my mom a few nights a week on top of my normal busy schedule I was exhausted every night. Next time you should wait to hammer as long as you can which is conventional on this forum anyway.

If your power did take night actions into account, you could've potentially reconstructed it from reviewing Laser's recording of their chat with me... But it was unfortunately obvious that you lacked the time and energy.

I did think very carefully about this. The problem was not knowing the Humans’ win condition. I was considering that possibly Mak would win in a 1v1 situation with the AI for balance reasons.
Mak-Laser-Glue is a scum win regardless of night actions. I don’t get the faction, just “scum wins”.
Mak (with a kill because he inherited the AI kill)-Town!Laser (with a vig)-Glue is inconclusive until Laser submits a night action; however I didn’t think Laser had a kill.

One being that BF flipped bodyguard on night one and I wasn't sure how people would react to me claiming the same role.

TBH it probably wouldn’t have gone well for you, and it would have been a waste of a yeet for town. You made the correct decision.

Also, Sabrar was maybe (probably?) right about two mafia being a problem, so sorry folks for that. I'd also be interested in whether the humans felt put out by not having access to a kill. I think the bad luck of being the first two voted off really sucked, I was hoping that a larger alliance would have better odds of being able to go deeper without a kill through coordinating votes and reads.

I think I said in the thread somewhere I didn’t think Sabrar would approve this because he was in a mafia faction without knowledge of his partners and no kill and he did not like it. I think you should have given the Human team day and night chat since all they had was information and their powers were not actively helpful in eliminating the other team.


Re: Night actions. I KNEW BoomFrog was the target. For those that doubted me, I will accept kibble. Note I did consider BoomFrog the target in my final analysis and I can't remember what I came up with. I think it was one of the things that ended up more negative for Laser, but not conclusive because I could see Boom as somi's choice.


Adum, I will return to this post because there are many interesting topics that I would love to discuss! Feel free to ping me if I forget. And I am totally serious about the confirmation remind me to post a link to the game where I caught scum from his confirmation post (Djehutynakht in Vaniliafia I need to find the link).


I’m still going through spoilers. And I haven’t looked at chats. Shout outs, game thoughts, etc soon!

[moody7277]

So my final analysis was all based on prior content.

Which included your interpretation that me wanting somi de-rezzed was distancing instead of an actual read.

[bessie]

Yes but more I didn't feel somi was going hard after you as you were of him.

[Seven]

bessie as a pony is literally too cute im gonna die T_T

[AdumbroDeus]

I'm really disappointed this is what you answered in my post, instead of answering my night action question and going back to the chat logs to figure why it was relevant. Or asking for Laser to claim their last ability first.

There was no point in asking Laser to claim his ability in endgame. Kinda same reason I didn’t really consider moody’s night result. Laser was going to lie, or he was going to tell the truth, and there would be no way to know which one it was. For the record, I thought LaserGuy’s unclaimed ability was bulletproof.

I'll feel a lot better if you tell me the endgame comparison power don't take it into account night actions, because it genuinely would would suck if the reason why we lost was you didn't get to answer the question because you weren't able to stay on long enough to give more than one real post on the nights I was asking about it and that game day didn't include any weekend time.

I was trying to find time to come back to the thread but with taking care of my mom a few nights a week on top of my normal busy schedule I was exhausted every night. Next time you should wait to hammer as long as you can which is conventional on this forum anyway.

If your power did take night actions into account, you could've potentially reconstructed it from reviewing Laser's recording of their chat with me... But it was unfortunately obvious that you lacked the time and energy.

I did think very carefully about this. The problem was not knowing the Humans’ win condition. I was considering that possibly Mak would win in a 1v1 situation with the AI for balance reasons.
Mak-Laser-Glue is a scum win regardless of night actions. I don’t get the faction, just “scum wins”.
Mak (with a kill because he inherited the AI kill)-Town!Laser (with a vig)-Glue is inconclusive until Laser submits a night action; however I didn’t think Laser had a kill.

They specifically were saying they could save the game in the chat records, any power that would allow it conflicts with the understanding I came to of your ability. Ultimately the reason to ask was to see if what he said made sense, both with your power and with how he and I treated his.

The issue with waiting was... The deadline was really weird that day it was like 7 am my time, nobody but me and laser were on and Somi could've easily voted somebody else with his partner to make himself un-yeetable. It was getting to be what I thought was Somi's active time too. In retrospect, self-voting was a great move because it allowed them to essentially force us to end the day early.

You are correct in that we're not sure, but a dormant NK is the best theory we had at the time and turned out to be correct. I should've said they claimed vig though, that was my bad.

I'm gonna also say, I don't think any of this is your fault. The issue was the demands on your time matched up very poorly with the demands on Madge's time and as a result we just didn't get a chance to puzzle out a complicated setup. It's just a very depressing reason to lose.

Re: Night actions. I KNEW BoomFrog was the target. For those that doubted me, I will accept kibble. Note I did consider BoomFrog the target in my final analysis and I can't remember what I came up with. I think it was one of the things that ended up more negative for Laser, but not conclusive because I could see Boom as somi's choice.

Fair, I didn't figure that scum had this much power in a game with so many scum, especially since that would put killing scum so far ahead of non-killing scum... But ya lol, this game was really really against town.

Adum, I will return to this post because there are many interesting topics that I would love to discuss! Feel free to ping me if I forget. And I am totally serious about the confirmation remind me to post a link to the game where I caught scum from his confirmation post (Djehutynakht in Vaniliafia I need to find the link).

I ain't saying you can't don't worry! I just thing it's gotten forced and in particular here there was too much made to force some scummy intent where none could be seen from the posts.

[bessie]

@Madge you forgot to post your role pm.

[boomfrog]

Oh and btw, I edited your pony to avatar standards for you!

Thank you very much!

[madge]

@Madge you forgot to post your role pm.

Right, sorry!

The following is Madge's role PM:




Evil Moderator Who Hates You Specifically

You wanted to create a fun game full of PIZZAZZ, but you also wanted to victimise a certain labrador in the process. You used all your most wiley tricks to get it done, and you have suceeded. You are proud of yourself and your devious ways.

Win Condition:

• You win if all players with dog avatars ragequit the game in disgust

Personal Abilities:

• PIZZAZZ: Once before the game starts, you can attempt to inject PIZzAZZ into the game. Assuming no interference with your action, FUN things will happen in the game and be enjoyed by all players EXCEPT ONE
• This ability can be interfered with by anyone with the Co-Mod ability.

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh and btw, I edited your pony to avatar standards for you!

Thank you very much!

you're very welcome!

@Madge you forgot to post your role pm.

Right, sorry!

The following is Madge's role PM:




Evil Moderator Who Hates You Specifically

You wanted to create a fun game full of PIZZAZZ, but you also wanted to victimise a certain labrador in the process. You used all your most wiley tricks to get it done, and you have suceeded. You are proud of yourself and your devious ways.

Win Condition:

• You win if all players with dog avatars ragequit the game in disgust

Personal Abilities:

• PIZZAZZ: Once before the game starts, you can attempt to inject PIZzAZZ into the game. Assuming no interference with your action, FUN things will happen in the game and be enjoyed by all players EXCEPT ONE
• This ability can be interfered with by anyone with the Co-Mod ability.

Omg lol

This is absolutely amazing, and thanks for the confirmation you had a thing against Bessie!

[madge]

It's because Bessie tried to submit a night action on the nights she couldn't. that was N1.

N4 she asked for a power, Sabrar gave her the power to post in the gojoe thread, me I tried to give her the power to determine if someone's role flavour portion contained the letter e, but Sabrar didn't let me because he said it counted as targeting and would "mess up the sanctity of the game"

what a buzzkill

[bessie]

Yes I role copped Madge on N1.
I also tried to vig Sabrar on N5 but it didn’t work so I think he’s bulletproof.


Bark outs!

Fred – I’m disappointed that you replaced out, but understandable because you had a very difficult role.

Trisscar – Thank you for replacing. I’m disappointed we didn’t get to play together longer.

BoomFrog – Please play more than once a year. I need my Frog. <3

Heury – Sorry, I tried to keep you in the game! You played too well and it hurt you because you play best when you are non-town.

EGW – I am sooooo disappointed you were killed N2 it would have been interesting to see if I would have come around to scum reading you.

Gluelock – You played a good game and were universally town read until you screwed up your claim. I should have known you were town due to your end of day content but there wasn’t enough time to move the yeet. Please play with us again soon!

Seven – Sigh. My bestest bud, I feel that you distracted me a lot in the early game for a invalid reason and I wasn’t able to concentrate my efforts on other players. We can argue about it later.

Makhaira – Your team had a very difficult path to the win and you played well.

JC – You are a lot of fun and a great player! Thank you for playing with us.

somitomi – You are a scum genius that never leaves connections to your partners. You deserve the win.

AdumbroDeus – You were great as our town leader! Sorry I ran out of steam at the end. There was no way I would have time to do a thorough reread until Saturday afternoon my time which I think was close to deadline. I tried to read on my phone at work breaks, but the only way I can really play is at my computer with running notes. I’m looking forward to playing with you again.

moody7277 – Sorry moody. It was very close and I think with a full reread I would have gone with Laser but with the level of content at 10 or so pages per hour, I just couldn’t do it. All your night actions were too spot on and thus suspicious. You can NK me in the next game where you will probably be scum.

LaserGuy – I was so close and was reading you as my “Angel Eyes”, but I chose wrong. I think if I wasn’t using most of my effort to defend against Seven I would have focused more on you D1 and D2. But I feel in a way I did win because you were wrong about me.

Madge – Scum.

Sabrar – My bestest puppy pal, please play soon.


Game thoughts when I get to them. I still haven’t read the chats.

[boomfrog]

@Madge: If I had used Ready for trouble bodyguarding on someone who was targeted with a strong man kill, what happens?