Sorcerer's 11 Mafia - xkcd edition - Game Over

[Dooplissity]

However, I am interested what you mean by a meaningful basis, and why it would be better to have that.

Is it not self-evident why being able to sort people based on something meaningful is better?

Fundamentally, what's gone on here is that you correctly identified that I wasn't interesting in sorting Somi there. However, you've misattributed it to "me knowing somi's alignment, so I didn't need to sort" when the answer is "Instead of sorting someone based on what I view as pretty flimsy means, I wanted to get us off an unproductive aside and onto something that will enable me to sort better"

It's just short term vs long term goals.

[Dooplissity]

EGW's annoyance is probably town
vote: bessie taking the scattershot "let's fos a bunch and not vote" is wolfy imo - easier to throw at the wall at see what sticks if one does a light scattering of sus with no vote swaps to justify.

I never participate in RVS! When I vote, it will be serious.

References:
viewtopic.php?p=6955#p6955
https://smashboards.com/threads/apex-le ... t-24146342

I think you misunderstand me here - I'm not chastising you for not casting an RVS vote. I'm raising an eyebrow because you indicated 3 people as scummy/having done something scummy, but didn't lean yourself in any direction between them or apply pressure with what would be a non-random, serious vote.

It's very easy to shadecast X, Y, and Z, and then hop onto whichever of those is gaining traction later as a supposedly "natural extension" of your earlier reads.

It's harder maintain that flexibility if one is to shadecast X, Y, Z and vote Z, because it establishes your primary suspicion. It's also more ProTown because it applies pressure to Z, which we can use to read the thread. Right now we basically have frack-all interesting data from voting, wagons, etc because we're so wildly split and so few votes are being cast. I guess maybe this site is just reticent about voting early D1?

[EGW]

Is it not self-evident why being able to sort people based on something meaningful is better? Fundamentally, what's gone on here is that you correctly identified that I wasn't interesting in sorting Somi there. However, you've misattributed it to "me knowing somi's alignment, so I didn't need to sort" when the answer is "Instead of sorting someone based on what I view as pretty flimsy means, I wanted to get us off an unproductive aside and onto something that will enable me to sort better" It's just short term vs long term goals.

Not to me, no. However, I'm starting to think this is a disagreement on theory. So I'll back off from this. I have no problems with the rest of your play at the moment, plus I wanted to make a push to generate content. Admittedly, that's really the only lead I had at the time.

Unvote

[EGW]

b. him in this case is Cynical View, a sort of mafia alter ego that reads everything in the most scum originated way possible.

Moody, why are you using a cynical view this game? How have your reads progressed this game?

[AdumbroDeus]

However, I am interested what you mean by a meaningful basis, and why it would be better to have that.

Is it not self-evident why being able to sort people based on something meaningful is better?

Fundamentally, what's gone on here is that you correctly identified that I wasn't interesting in sorting Somi there. However, you've misattributed it to "me knowing somi's alignment, so I didn't need to sort" when the answer is "Instead of sorting someone based on what I view as pretty flimsy means, I wanted to get us off an unproductive aside and onto something that will enable me to sort better"

It's just short term vs long term goals.

How does this interaction make you feel About EGW?

[EGW]

I thought it was obvious? Maybe I’m just used to moody’s dry sense of humor which is like mine. Everyone has an FoS or an IGMEOY right now. I’m in scum hunting mode.

This hasn't really answered why you IGMEOY'd for me wanting Moody to wait to respond. (Which I misunderstood)

[Dooplissity]

However, I am interested what you mean by a meaningful basis, and why it would be better to have that.

Is it not self-evident why being able to sort people based on something meaningful is better?

Fundamentally, what's gone on here is that you correctly identified that I wasn't interesting in sorting Somi there. However, you've misattributed it to "me knowing somi's alignment, so I didn't need to sort" when the answer is "Instead of sorting someone based on what I view as pretty flimsy means, I wanted to get us off an unproductive aside and onto something that will enable me to sort better"

It's just short term vs long term goals.

How does this interaction make you feel About EGW?

Probably my strongest townread atm. He held the push for longer than he needed to look townie and even after it wasn't really getting thread traction, and all of it seemed genuine.

[AdumbroDeus]

Is it not self-evident why being able to sort people based on something meaningful is better?

Fundamentally, what's gone on here is that you correctly identified that I wasn't interesting in sorting Somi there. However, you've misattributed it to "me knowing somi's alignment, so I didn't need to sort" when the answer is "Instead of sorting someone based on what I view as pretty flimsy means, I wanted to get us off an unproductive aside and onto something that will enable me to sort better"

It's just short term vs long term goals.

How does this interaction make you feel About EGW?

Probably my strongest townread atm. He held the push for longer than he needed to look townie and even after it wasn't really getting thread traction, and all of it seemed genuine.

Thanks!

[AdumbroDeus]

So putting Doop in the strong townread pile, the exchange with EGW read like somebody who thought they were defending themselves from a townie and then they confirmed that perspective when it would've benefitted scum to go after EGW, to somebody going after EGW already and provided rationale for it.

EGW, I'm suspicious of. Changing perspectives when faced with evidence is a townie thing, but it only happened after they started getting pushback and the I dont think Doop's explanation now added more more really pertinent details over their last explanation to create that change. EGW's argument itself was pretty much a fallacy of limited choices as well, I think they're too sophisticated a player to make that mistake.

Worth adding though, that Doop was wrong in responding to the question that prompted thus, they spoiled essentially the only pertinent question that came out of the heuristic kerfuffle, but it very clearly reads as "they thought nothing from the exchange was or would pertinent or useful do the best call was to shut it down".

[AdumbroDeus]

I'll add though, stubbornness is also a possibility, I think if I read them as a less sophisticated player I'd have an easier time believing that was the cause. (Or they made a hard read from something else and are trying to trap them)

Btw, EGW is frozenflame right? I got that vibe, but I don't wanna be making bad assumptions if I'm wrong.

[moody7277]

b. him in this case is Cynical View, a sort of mafia alter ego that reads everything in the most scum originated way possible.

Moody, why are you using a cynical view this game? How have your reads progressed this game?

I personally am not taking a cynical view of the game, Cynical View is just a tool I use to analyze the game. Cynical View takes the most negative interpretation of a post/s and I compare that to a more straight up reading and see how close they are.

I know you've seen me use Cynical View before, so I'm a little curious why you're wanting to go so far in the weeds regarding it.

More current reads shortly.

[EGW]

I do not recall you using a cynical view before.

[moody7277]

EGW - very interested in clean reactions, interaction with doop for purpose of getting content +2.5 (prev +0.5)

PJ - The Shadow -1

Adum - has Mak somi EGW sus, doop bessie townie, continued discussion with EGW re doop and vice versa looks townie +2 (prev -2)

Also, I completely empathize with this

I never really felt like I was a particularly strong player, especially now that I feel super rusty.

somi - first few posts with dry humor (obviously Daria inspired), trying to get some content going later on. +1 (prev +1.5)

heury - really jokey right out of the gate, fluffy since -2 (prev -2)

bessie - foses Fred, confused by somi, doop scoring town points. She is looking like trying to avoid tunnelling D1, which Cynical View says is so against her meta it's tanamount to a scum claim, which I find laughable. +2.5 (prev +3)

Mak - anti Fred being lazy and wanted him to claim, wanted my to expand on my read on her, satisfied with heury. -0.5 (prev +1)

Fred - acting kind of newbish, little bit of picking on style, nothing deep yet -0.5 (prev -1)

Maven - fake jailer claim, votes me for not noticing fake jailer claim. -2 (prev +1)

Doop - trying to clarify the somi confusion issue (looks good), decides to vote bessie for the multifossing (CV approves), switches to talking to EGW re fallout from the somi thing. +3 (prev +0.5)


@EGW: I couldn't find any examples on this forum, and since a grue ate the other one I can't look for evidence of older games. Cynical View also doesn't like you conflating the two of us, he doesn't think I'm paranoid enough for this game.

CynicalView.jpg (4.23 KiB) Viewed 37801 times

[bessie]

Woof! Has anyone missed me me me?

I have been thinking about my interaction with Fred. Fred’s original question, and this response to my response, make me suspicious. For reference, this is the original question:

As for Bessie, this being a werewolf game, isn't your typical woof/grr scale irrelevant, flavor-wise?

My response:

No! There are still three scum in the game, meaning three players with anti-town goals. I will just use the term “scum” instead of my usual term “non-town”, since one of the scum is town, and there are no players with independent win conditions.

Fred’s response:

Also, I was more saying that woof and grr as words to describe how good or bad someone seems aren't the best type of words for a game where the bad people are doggos too. Have you considered smooth to hairy?

Fred seems to be overly focused on the human/werewolf groupings and how this relates to good/bad, so to speak. The human/dog difference shouldn’t be all that important to scumhunting (except for the cop). My unreliable gut feels that Fred is scum and that is why he is focused on this distinction.

I don't have an issue with walls. I have an issue with posts where the word to content ratio is horrifying. Haven't ran into that issue with anyone this game, though EGW has come to closest.

Interesting. Can you point out where you believe EGW’s content is fluffy?

While I did take that opportunity to tease you you you, some of that applies to moody's cynical view suggesting I had to be saved as well. Doop's clarification feels like it's coming from a townie place, particularly because I think this is our first game together so they don't know me and could've just assumed I was relatively new to this. At the same time, I can also see where EGW is coming from, me saying it always having been a joke is less credible after that, so if I had to pin this down, I'd say that's a tvt discussion.

Is there anyone in this game you find suspicious or do you only have town reads?

I think you misunderstand me here - I'm not chastising you for not casting an RVS vote. I'm raising an eyebrow because you indicated 3 people as scummy/having done something scummy, but didn't lean yourself in any direction between them or apply pressure with what would be a non-random, serious vote.

It's very easy to shadecast X, Y, and Z, and then hop onto whichever of those is gaining traction later as a supposedly "natural extension" of your earlier reads.

It's harder maintain that flexibility if one is to shadecast X, Y, Z and vote Z, because it establishes your primary suspicion. It's also more ProTown because it applies pressure to Z, which we can use to read the thread. Right now we basically have frack-all interesting data from voting, wagons, etc because we're so wildly split and so few votes are being cast. I guess maybe this site is just reticent about voting early D1?

First of all, valid. It’s my style and is consistent. I usually play once a day when I get home from work. I read all the posts that have been made since I last posted, and I pick out anything I find interesting and respond to it. I don’t do behavior-type reads or cases; I’m not good at them. Like my Fred read above, I have a gut feeling that he is scum from our interactions, but I can’t present a coherent case. I’m a very technical player and I am good at nitpicking things that don’t look right. An example would be Maven claiming jailor. Normally I would be all over that, asking him if he read the OP, what he was trying to do with that claim, etc. But I didn’t because Maven implied he was going to claim jailer in the sign-up thread.

As you observed, the meta on this site very reticent about voting early and often. Most of our games are majority elimination and it is suspicious to hammer because its automatically ends the day there is no posting after hammer.

I will try to get a Woof-Grr list up tonight with a vote.

Probably my strongest townread atm. He held the push for longer than he needed to look townie and even after it wasn't really getting thread traction, and all of it seemed genuine.

I don’t follow your reasoning here. Do you mean he was trying to look townie? If yes, then why the conclusion?

Btw, EGW is frozenflame right? I got that vibe, but I don't wanna be making bad assumptions if I'm wrong.

EGW/Evil George Washington is Ranmaru.
Makhaira is FrozenFlame.

George, why didn’t you correct AdumbroDeus? Are you reading his posts? -1

@AdumbroDeus, please get an avatar. It makes reading the thread a lot easier.


Ninja’d by moody while I was typing this out. Will respond later.

[Seven]

Vote Count (1.2)
bessie (2) - Fred, Doop
Somi (1) - Heury
Moody (1) - Maven
Heury (1) - Moody
Fred (1) - Mak
Mak (1) - Adum

Not Voting (4): PJ, somi, bessie, EGW

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

History

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

doo > fre
heu > som
egw > moo
moo > heu
mav > doo
fre > bes
adu x sev
mak > adu
doo > adu

mav > moo
mak > fre
doo > bes
egw > doo
adu > mak
egw > unv

Prince J has been prodded. Deadline is in my signature.

[EGW]

@Bessie: I was fine letting others correct Adumbrodeus naturally Bessie. Yet I am more interested with your answer to my previous question thank you.

[somitomi]

Has PJ posted yet?
Haven't seen Maven in a while either...

Somo seemed to simultaneously be aware and not aware that the setup is open (referencing no n0 kills, then moody having insider info) which strikes me as weird.

I find this comment kind of odd after so much discussion took place about it.
How about now? Have your reads remained the same or changed at all? I'd like to see you post what you have in mind so far.
[/quote]
I didn't ping you, but I did talk about that here.

I do not recall you using a cynical view before.

I can't provide examples either, but moody does do that fairly regularly

Is there anyone in this game you find suspicious or do you only have town reads?

I just called you and moody suspicious, sorry if that wasn't clear. Heury's dropped off my radar a bit, but his posts feel a bit light to me, like he's just coasting along. Not entirely sure what to make of that yet, I have a hard time reading Heury.

Speaking of which

I like and appreciate a vote against a scummy post. And in the future may reveal info about either player.

Ok, this is still pretty general, but I don't feel like hammering on it will achieve much, what do you think of the Doop-EGW interaction?

[somitomi]

EBWOP to fix quote:

How about now? Have your reads remained the same or changed at all? I'd like to see you post what you have in mind so far.

I didn't ping you, but I did talk about that here.

[EGW]

Somo seemed to simultaneously be aware and not aware that the setup is open (referencing no n0 kills, then moody having insider info) which strikes me as weird.

I find this comment kind of odd after so much discussion took place about it.

Can you elaborate on this?

[heuristically_alone]

Woof! Has anyone missed me me me?

I don't have an issue with walls. I have an issue with posts where the word to content ratio is horrifying. Haven't ran into that issue with anyone this game, though EGW has come to closest.

Interesting. Can you point out where you believe EGW’s content is fluffy?

Always missing you

It's not that EGW's content has been fluffy but that there are so many pronouns in a single sentence that makes my brain want to skip over it. I mean it's 2023, the repetitive using the same pronoun 5 times on the first sentence is a little old.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

It defends him because it clarifies it for him if he believes it to be true, and it gives anyone else silly enough to try to attack him 0 fuel regardless of alignment. I didn't have an idea whether if it came from scum!somi or town!somi, I would have liked a progression there to be able to make that determination. Myself and Moody were originally coming at it from assuming scum had no daytalk, but now this only makes sense from a sorcerer/wolf perspective or evil / town perspective, which is why I believe it can be regardless of alignment for Somi, because again, the only thing I am seriously concerned about is you not determining his alignment there. (Since you as werewolf or sorcerer would already know his alignment regardless if he was town or werewolf) I think this stagnates the early game as well, you didn't care to progress it at that moment. To answer your question on his alignment, I've seen him be stubborn about things like numbers and quota in previous games, seeing him argue about something he believes in might help me determine his alignment due to previous meta.

And Somi, to answer your question Id be surprised if egw and doop knew they were each other's scum partners. And I do not plan on voting either today.

In regards to the confusion around Somi's understanding of the roles, I thought it was clear that it was a joke and that he is fully aware of the scenario.

Anyone that thought Maven didn't read the roles is quite unbelievable. Isn't maven the one that fake claims jailer every game?

As for fred, it is not alignment indicative for him to not try and tell everyone he's not going to try. I see it more as him being burnt out rather than hatching a plan. However it is still anti town behavior and I am not opposed to a Fred vote.

Bessie feels normal and normal Bessie is town

I don't see any issues with Moody's reads. Quite clear and easy to understand.

I need to see more content from Adum, whether that's me taking time to read old content or waiting for new content.

Mak currently making the best vote. So towny.

[heuristically_alone]

Ebwop

I'm going to put a scum lean on Adum. Don't understand this affection with Somi's understanding of the game roles

[EGW]

I'm not sure how that would = content / word ratio horrifying, or why that would be alignment indicative. That's just me trying to explain why I thought Doop's post seemed like a defense, which I stated was hard to explain.

[Dooplissity]

Probably my strongest townread atm. He held the push for longer than he needed to look townie and even after it wasn't really getting thread traction, and all of it seemed genuine.

I don’t follow your reasoning here. Do you mean he was trying to look townie? If yes, then why the conclusion?

Btw, EGW is frozenflame right? I got that vibe, but I don't wanna be making bad assumptions if I'm wrong.

EGW/Evil George Washington is Ranmaru.
Makhaira is FrozenFlame.

Sorry, I can see how one could parse it that way.
It's (He held the push for longer) (than he needed to look townie)
not (He held the push for longer than he needed) (to look townie)

Also fuck me, you guys never told me Ran and FF were in this game. EGW's everything makes so much more sense now lol. I townread him less strongly now though. Ran is absolutely capable of fabricating that, if I remember him correctly. I still think it was genuine but I'm less sure of it now.

[Dooplissity]

oh and he ninja'd me too

fwiw I agree EGW is a bit longwinded in the posts he's made but generally getting more visibility into someone's thought processes is a net positive, so I'm fine with it.

[EGW]

I know you asked, but I am trying to post less, so I ignored it figuring someone would mention who I was.