Secret Santa Game Thread

[osieorb18]

And she still took a lot of convincing to step even slightly away from the sarcasm, and never stepped away from the self-victimization.

You can take the Bessie out of the argument but you can't take the argument out of the Bessie.

Am I getting you right that you're essentially saying "Yes, she took a lot of convincing to even start to step away, and still hasn't engaged in good faith, but that's okay because #YOLO." as a reason why you feel she's town?

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Osie I think it's a playstyle crush here...

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

I mean we like to vote to obtain a reaction, but here an early vote is ignored as meaningless.

[osieorb18]

Like, I stepped away from talking to Bessie of my own initiative. She's still a player in the game and I'm still reading and sorting her. But I decided of my own accord that it wasn't worth my time to let her control my play. But Bessie didn't have any such organic thought process. It was "Multiple people are asking me to step away and if I don't please the crowd, I'll look scummy."

[boomfrog]

#2 - This is a really awful thought process that damages the strength of town in games. One of town players number one tools are their votes. Players need to be able to use their votes to put pressure on others. If you remove the strength of town votes by saying "all votes prior to a certain time are meaningless", then you might as well be playing a game without majority elimination. You might as well be playing a game with a day phase of a fraction of the length, in your example, half. That's not how the game of Mafia works. People need to feel pressure from votes no matter when it is in the day phase or it's pretty much a different social deduction game.

Absolutely agree and it's something I've been struggling against, but is fairly set on this site. And most importantly explains the mindset of Madge when she made that post. I don't condone it, only explain it.

[osieorb18]

I mean we like to vote to obtain a reaction, but here an early vote is ignored as meaningless.

Then why is majority a thing here? Like, they're still using it. It's still not a plurality-only game. I haven't seen that much of XkCD games, but even on Smashboards, nobody was really considering plurality-only to be a thing, as far as I can recall. This isn't one of the various hyper-casual communities where half of the players are edgy and memetic, popular people never get eliminated in the first couple of day phases, claiming is disallowed, half the day is spent on niceties, and majority isn't an option. Clearly voting is still intended by the community to matter.

[boomfrog]

Like, I stepped away from talking to Bessie of my own initiative. She's still a player in the game and I'm still reading and sorting her. But I decided of my own accord that it wasn't worth my time to let her control my play. But Bessie didn't have any such organic thought process. It was "Multiple people are asking me to step away and if I don't please the crowd, I'll look scummy."

You are really stuck in the double standard here. I literally asked you to disengage multiple times before you did and a bunch of people echoed me. If anything you were the one that took more convincing. You know you did it of your own accord and assume that's obvious to all of us. But then assume Bessie didn't do the same. Bessie doesn't bow to the crowd as either alignment. I do think she listened to me personally though since she and I have a long history and mutual respect.

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

I mean we like to vote to obtain a reaction, but here an early vote is ignored as meaningless.

Then why is majority a thing here? Like, they're still using it. It's still not a plurality-only game. I haven't seen that much of XkCD games, but even on Smashboards, nobody was really considering plurality-only to be a thing, as far as I can recall. This isn't one of the various hyper-casual communities where half of the players are edgy and memetic, popular people never get eliminated in the first couple of day phases, claiming is disallowed, half the day is spent on niceties, and majority isn't an option. Clearly voting is still intended by the community to matter.

Probably majority is for mechanical prooved scum players, and anyway i don't think is used in day 1

[boomfrog]

I mean we like to vote to obtain a reaction, but here an early vote is ignored as meaningless.

Then why is majority a thing here? Like, they're still using it. It's still not a plurality-only game. I haven't seen that much of XkCD games, but even on Smashboards, nobody was really considering plurality-only to be a thing, as far as I can recall. This isn't one of the various hyper-casual communities where half of the players are edgy and memetic, popular people never get eliminated in the first couple of day phases, claiming is disallowed, half the day is spent on niceties, and majority isn't an option. Clearly voting is still intended by the community to matter.

For sure, the intent of the game setup is for majority to matter and early elims have happened. But 19 out of 20 times it goes to deadline. I'm glad we aren't so degenerate, but the reality is early elims are hard to coalesce to the point of happening by accident or "accident" more often then intentianlly. People are VERY deliberate here and hesitant to act rashly.

[boomfrog]

Probably majority is for mechanical prooved scum players, and anyway i don't think is used in day 1

That's true, we've had some late game days where elim is very fast. The above points are mostly about D1 and become less true as the game goes on.

[boomfrog]

And she still took a lot of convincing to step even slightly away from the sarcasm, and never stepped away from the self-victimization.

You can take the Bessie out of the argument but you can't take the argument out of the Bessie.

Am I getting you right that you're essentially saying "Yes, she took a lot of convincing to even start to step away, and still hasn't engaged in good faith, but that's okay because #YOLO." as a reason why you feel she's town?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Whether someone acts the way you'd like them to is not a clear indication of alignment. Whether they act like their town-selves or their scum-selves is the question. And that's different for every person.

[osieorb18]

You are really stuck in the double standard here. I literally asked you to disengage multiple times before you did and a bunch of people echoed me.

Where? A bunch of people commented that the back and forth was frustrating but that's not the same thing as directly asking me to disengage. I was engaged in much more than just the back and forth, Bessie was not.

I can go back and check this but from what I recall, before I made the Bessie-style question wall and disengaged from interacting with her, there was no such request outside of general statements that a few people didn't care for the back and forth, alongside about half the thread explaining why they felt out of the two of myself and Bessie, she was scummy, and 1-2 people (moody stands out) stating but not explaining the opposite.

[Wam]

18 minutes to deadline link: https://bit.ly/3uFIXcL

Votals
Osieorb18 - 2 - bessie, moody7277
Bessie - 2 - , the worst
Moody7277 - 4 - boomfrog, Madge, xX_wakemeup1337_Xx, Osieorb18
The Snide Sniper - 1 - Heury

No Elim - 1 - the snide sniper
Not voting - 0

With 9 alive it takes 5 for an elimination.

[boomfrog]

You are really stuck in the double standard here. I literally asked you to disengage multiple times before you did and a bunch of people echoed me.

Where? A bunch of people commented that the back and forth was frustrating but that's not the same thing as directly asking me to disengage. I was engaged in much more than just the back and forth, Bessie was not.

I can go back and check this but from what I recall, before I made the Bessie-style question wall and disengaged from interacting with her, there was no such request outside of general statements that a few people didn't care for the back and forth, alongside about half the thread explaining why they felt out of the two of myself and Bessie, she was scummy, and 1-2 people (moody stands out) stating but not explaining the opposite.

No one gave any direct request to Bessie to stop either? So either you were both pressured to disengage or neither of you were.

[boomfrog]

If moody flips scum take a hard look at Madge and WMU. As I said, moody likes to be bussed. Madge was a tad early, but WMU fell right into place as the "oh, convince me why moodty is scum, mm, yeah that makes sense". That is a very typical maneuver for scum that have decided to bus.

If moodly flips town then Bessie is suspicious. Madge is still a possibility, as are Heury and TSS. But the later two are unlikely mates with Bessie. Bessie+WMU is possible, but if Bessie is town WMU is probably town. If we had all town wagons then WMU had no motivation to stay so engaged and switch around last minute.

[osieorb18]

You can take the Bessie out of the argument but you can't take the argument out of the Bessie.

Am I getting you right that you're essentially saying "Yes, she took a lot of convincing to even start to step away, and still hasn't engaged in good faith, but that's okay because #YOLO." as a reason why you feel she's town?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Whether someone acts the way you'd like them to is not a clear indication of alignment. Whether they act like their town-selves or their scum-selves is the question. And that's different for every person.

I mean, as a general rule, and this is a core part of why I don't use cold meta usually, players who have more micro-macro contradictions than others, players who don't engage in good faith, players who play to an agenda rather than to an organic progression, players whose posts are forced and whose behaviour is primarily predicated on that of others, rather than a give and take, those players are scum.

That's not saying that there's only one way or only a few ways to play. That both covers and excludes a vast spectrum of styles of play. It's about the reasoning. It's about critical thinking and working both to solve and to work together. And while there are people who are better at some elements than others, even new players approach these various elements of the game in good faith.

Town players across skill levels and across communities aren't some robots that you can put into a box of "does this person fit the way they play as this alignment?" If it was the case, the game would be easy. Would be solved. There would be no game. It wouldn't be social deduction.

It's why personality reads are so much more useful than meta reads. It's why tone reads are so much more useful than meta reads. I can go on, but in a nutshell, the game of mafia from a town perspective is predicated on behavioural analysis. On seeing what boxes someone checks on the scum side of things and seeing what boxes someone checks on the town side of things.

Bessie ticks all of the scum boxes, and at best a slight few town boxes of mostly meta if you're accurate in your read of her play here and her town meta.

[boomfrog]

If moody and Bessie are both town, The Worst is more likely to be scum and is a good pick of mate with TSS or Heury or Madge. The Worst+WMU doesn't make sense, that argument felt sincere I don't think it was S vs S.

[osieorb18]

You are really stuck in the double standard here. I literally asked you to disengage multiple times before you did and a bunch of people echoed me.

Where? A bunch of people commented that the back and forth was frustrating but that's not the same thing as directly asking me to disengage. I was engaged in much more than just the back and forth, Bessie was not.

I can go back and check this but from what I recall, before I made the Bessie-style question wall and disengaged from interacting with her, there was no such request outside of general statements that a few people didn't care for the back and forth, alongside about half the thread explaining why they felt out of the two of myself and Bessie, she was scummy, and 1-2 people (moody stands out) stating but not explaining the opposite.

No one gave any direct request to Bessie to stop either? So either you were both pressured to disengage or neither of you were.

More than half of my side of the argument was telling Bessie that if she was town she should step back and reevaluate. You, at the very least, made a post pointing out to Bessie that the core of her entire case at the time should be dropped. That she should stop arguing for it.

[osieorb18]

Even though I don't get their perspective, I think Boom is still tied for top town for me with the worst...

[osieorb18]

May change over night.

[boomfrog]

I mean, as a general rule, and this is a core part of why I don't use cold meta usually, players who have more micro-macro contradictions than others, players who don't engage in good faith, players who play to an agenda rather than to an organic progression, players whose posts are forced and whose behaviour is primarily predicated on that of others, rather than a give and take, those players are scum.

...

Bessie ticks all of the scum boxes, and at best a slight few town boxes of mostly meta if you're accurate in your read of her play here and her town meta.

Bessie's progression was organic. Even if she's scum she didn't start with an agenda to target you. She pushed at a few people and you pushed back and if I had more time I'd give details of why your push back didn't go well. But she didn't have an agenda and she did have progression.

[osieorb18]

But I think this elim should give us some good info.

[osieorb18]

I mean, as a general rule, and this is a core part of why I don't use cold meta usually, players who have more micro-macro contradictions than others, players who don't engage in good faith, players who play to an agenda rather than to an organic progression, players whose posts are forced and whose behaviour is primarily predicated on that of others, rather than a give and take, those players are scum.

...

Bessie ticks all of the scum boxes, and at best a slight few town boxes of mostly meta if you're accurate in your read of her play here and her town meta.

Bessie's progression was organic. Even if she's scum she didn't start with an agenda to target you. She pushed at a few people and you pushed back and if I had more time I'd give details of why your push back didn't go well. But she didn't have an agenda and she did have progression.

She lashed out in response to an innocent question since I didn't pay attention to a naked FoS.

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

If moody flips scum take a hard look at Madge and WMU. As I said, moody likes to be bussed. Madge was a tad early, but WMU fell right into place as the "oh, convince me why moodty is scum, mm, yeah that makes sense". That is a very typical maneuver for scum that have decided to bus.

If moodly flips town then Bessie is suspicious. Madge is still a possibility, as are Heury and TSS. But the later two are unlikely mates with Bessie. Bessie+WMU is possible, but if Bessie is town WMU is probably town. If we had all town wagons then WMU had no motivation to stay so engaged and switch around last minute.

You can see it like this but also you can see it as the only wagon i didn't have a previous read.
Finger crossed, i hope he will flip scum

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Even though I don't get their perspective, I think Boom is still tied for top town for me with the worst...

Agree about boomfrog