Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over

[bessie]

vote seven

The claim thing doesn't come from a townie mindset.

The only thing making me hesitate is I often read town seven as scum.

Other than that bessie is 99% con town. I want to gk back and do wagon analysis as I'm with whomever earlier suggested scim were already voting jedi as otherwise saving sabrar would have been easy.

If you want to do wagon analysis, do wagon analysis. Why hop on a wagon before you have time to reread and form opinions on other players? We have like four days.

Fine, Seven elim is probably happening. I’m gonna reread him when I get a chance, hopefully tonight after work.

Can anyone who knows how Seven plays talk about how he might be mafia *outside* of the fakeclaim? I really don’t care to read too much into something that had virtually no consequences.

What makes you so sure this elim is happening? Yesterday the SuperJedi elim was happening. And I agree with your second paragraph. Does anyone have an actual case on Seven or is this just low hanging fruit?


MathBlade, thank you for posting your Seven analysis, but it is still mostly based on his fakeclaim gambit. You have a little analysis of the end of Day 1, can you go more in to Seven’s play on Day 1 (and on his interactions with Sabrar) and what makes Seven scummy?

Apparently this has become the Big Issue for D2. The only time I've heard of town doing a fake power claim like this, it became a major historical event and the player involved mostly decided not to do that again; xkcd members may recall the phrase "pulling a freezeblade". My impression of Seven has therefore fallen off a cliff.

Didn’t Seven do the same thing in Brooklyn 99 Mafia? I don’t have time to search it right now but will take a look when I get home.


@Wam looking forward to that wagon analysis and moody’s place on it.


Back later we’re taking Hoku to the farmer’s market.

[moody7277]

Apparently this has become the Big Issue for D2. The only time I've heard of town doing a fake power claim like this, it became a major historical event and the player involved mostly decided not to do that again; xkcd members may recall the phrase "pulling a freezeblade". My impression of Seven has therefore fallen off a cliff.

Didn’t Seven do the same thing in Brooklyn 99 Mafia? I don’t have time to search it right now but will take a look when I get home.

I subbed out of Brooklyn 99 early on, so I don't have any memories from that game.

[Morgan]

Because whenever a case is based on fakeclaiming, it usually gets pushed devoid of logic or actual reasonable conversation “because he LiEd tO tHe ToWn” and I don’t care enough to engage in that kind of discourse. I’d rather eat the (potential) miselim and bitch about it after the fact.

But you’re right. Anything could happen.

[Morgan]

Also, the worst suggesting an alignment check on Jedi of all people is a waste. How about we look for mafia in the people who are more actively shaping the game, unless there’s a hidden benefit to knowing Jedi’s alignment that I’m missing.

Someone said that scum!Jedi having a more important role than Sabrar’s extra kill is unlikely and I agree. The odds of Jedi getting vigged or shrug-eliminated are so high that the idea that the mafia team sacrificed Sabrar for him is absurd.

[Morgan]

You know what, ignore my checking Jedi is a waste thing. I always try to assume too much about the setup.

The irony now is that if MathBlade doesn’t follow worst’s vote, he’ll be impeding the town by blocking a check on another player. lmao

[MathBlade]

@bessie -> Yes it is mostly based off the fake claim gambit. Because the fake claim gambit is based off what I know, the worst was blocked. That’s knowledge. Anything based on D1 is based on interpretation. Interpretation is one of my weaker points so I focus on where I am strong.

Day one we know that we flash wagoned scum, something that almost never happens. If Jedi is town then one of the first two prominent voices is almost certainly town. If Jedi is scum then it’s more a “who cares” situation.

I want to see what the worst days of Jedi and then make a conclusion accordingly. Also, for Morgan I already am voting Seven so….? And mafia/cop checks should always be in null reads not active players as we can be sorted by our posting.

[SuperJedi224]

You haven't put that vote in yet though

[MathBlade]

Good question. Why aren’t you hunting versus picking on people you feel are “easy”. Both you and Madge are doing it and it’s annoying.

I am down for Seven policy since they clearly lied without hood reason. Losing a scum on D1 either leads to quiet scum like Suzaku or gambiting scum like Seven or a mix.

But that’s all it is policy. In a role madness game lying without good reason (notice not all liars) is grounds for elim and Seven’s explanation is pretty bad. Trying to gaslight everyone is sus as fuck.

Dude, how are you easy? You're trying to argue you're confirmed town. That doesn't sound like an easy push to me.

Policy elims are boring and stagnate the game. And if anything, I expect reaction tests and fakeclaims (from either alignment) in *any* mafia game, doubly so in role madness.

Why are you so hesitant to vote me or Seven?

About me being “easy” that’s been the mindset. The only case was “I wasn’t here”. I was working. Initial suggestions are very difficult to overcome so poisoning the well is bad. My defense should be clear and I shouldn’t need one.

Take me and the worst for example: one of four alignments
SvS >> While this is possible to an outsider’s perspective, me claiming to have blocked the worst then one of the worst and myself not dying is suspicious. This is not a good strategic play if I or the worst are scum as we open ourselves to lots of ways things go wrong.

SvT >> Again this is possible to an outsider’s perspective but then why do I as scum true claim when I could just sheep Seven and take the elim on Wisp. The worst confirmed he was blocked and him being town means he was blocked so that means true claim.

TvS >> Possible that the worst is a strongman here and killed Wisp or just scum who got blocked but considering how Seven recanted their “implied” claim (benefit of the doubt) means that they know at least one of us is truthtelling and so continuing on is dumb, and that’s looking at Seven in the best light possible.

TvT >> This is clearly the most likely answer as the others require a lot of weird stretching and flexing to make work. I may be an idiot but I am more than likely a town idiot which makes me hella sus of Morgan because he knows better.

Now take that and add Seven onto the mix:

Seven claimed the worst visited Wisp. I blocked the worst. These are in direct conflict barring a strongman action. Given the worst said their action failed, there’s three options (pre Seven recant)

>> Seven is truthtelling about worst visiting Wisp, which means worst is lying about being blocked. (This necessitates me town, see SvS argument earlier)

>> Seven is lying about the worst visiting Wisp, worst is telling the truth about being blocked and I am telling the truth about blocking him. Now again you can argue that a buddy blocked Seven which is still logically possible but not at all likely because if I was ever rolecopped the gig would be up. So it’s more likely that I am truth claiming there.

You’re not using the mechanical driven thought you’re claiming while claiming to scumread me. You just aren’t. Seven lying was the more obvious answer and me and the worst TvT is the most logical answer. Notice how Seven has given up attacking elsewhere or reads, Seven very much reads like defeated scum. No one was posting anything and Seven didn’t push off the Sabrar wagon or a policy elim or anything. Seven and Suzaku seems like a really good scum pairing IF I have to assume that you’re town.

Seven has done absolutely nothing today that makes me think they are town and if you run a fake claim gambit (let’s assume that’s what Seven was doing benefit of the doubt) then if it blows up in your face you have to be a paragon of Townieness later so the day isn’t wasted and we either get a good elim or at the worst we get info from Seven’s flip.

About voting you, games are better when they are collaborative rather than dictated. I suggested a narrow scope and no one suggested a lurker like Suzaku either. Unless Suzaku shows signs of life he might get blocked tonight.

Secondly, whatever I do worst is forced to sheep so I would rather have consensus since I townread the worst.

Vote: Seven

I believe I have.

[SuperJedi224]

Didn't notice that bit of the post when I looked half an hour ago, thanks

[the worst]

Vote: Seven

vote: Seven

Fine, Seven elim is probably happening. I’m gonna reread him when I get a chance, hopefully tonight after work.

Can anyone who knows how Seven plays talk about how he might be mafia *outside* of the fakeclaim? I really don’t care to read too much into something that had virtually no consequences.

Other than the gambit thingo has Seven done much? I feel like he has posted a lot but none of it has been v memorable to me until the gambit.

Very interrsted in your evaluation on seven btw.

Order doesn’t matter ducky. But if you want go ahead.

I really want to know Seven’s mindset on the game as a whole. I want to feel Seven is town by the time Seven is done.

Duly noted.
vote: Seven

[Seven]

the worst visited wisp btw

@Madge no results from me. Also no breadcrumb.

Apparently this has become the Big Issue for D2. The only time I've heard of town doing a fake power claim like this, it became a major historical event and the player involved mostly decided not to do that again; xkcd members may recall the phrase "pulling a freezeblade". My impression of Seven has therefore fallen off a cliff.

Well then, I must be a legend:

Midnight Ops Mafia: https://smashboards.com/threads/midnigh ... er.505778/

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

In this game I was Mason in an open setup. Claiming Chocolate and retracting allowed me and my mason partner to survive late into the game, limiting the PoE. Additionally, it created a chain that led to a mafia elim D1. BTW this was how one of the mafia members reacted to my retraction that game:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Scum are always overdramtic with these retractions as it's something easy to latch onto and push a miselim on. Compare it with The Worst's and Madge's response this game. And contrast it with yours and Wam's. Additionally, contrast it to TownMadge's reaction to my fake claim in Stellaris, which I'll post below. She was very light-hearted about it.


Token Power Mafia 1.2: https://smashboards.com/threads/token-p ... in.502595/

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Here, a Mafia member Z25 formed a neighborhood with me. I was scumreading him and claimed tracker so that he would pass it onto his partner. There were limited claims available and I anticipated that his partner would preemptively claim my role during the mass claim the next day (outting himself to me).


Sorcerer's 11: https://smashboards.com/threads/sorcere ... en.496864/

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Fake claimed a guilty cop result on mafia Z25 here.


Brooklyn 99 Mafia: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Claimed bulletproof just because. Oh actually it was because I was a Seraph Knight and knew (at least I thought I knew) that the lack of kill was because of my save.


Stellaris Mafia: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

So in this game, I actually did have an ability to end the day when I wanted. The setup was that we could do any number of eliminations as we wanted by the deadline but could also choose to end the day by majority vote. My ability was that I could unilaterally choose to end the day. However, as I was being voted off early, I claimed that it was a passive ability that would trigger once I was at L-3. Someone had caught that I had already been placed at L-3 at one point though and I was outted (facepalm). Note the difference in finding out that I was lying from Madge there in contrast to this game:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Hellville: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Hellville

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Fake claimed cop to save my ass and draw the night kill. This was also the game that I played previously with Morgan/Lagoon. We ended up having to survival cross vote each other at the end of the day as the top two wagons. My reads were pretty lit here too.



Also for the record, my fake claims have never led to a miselim or town messing up with their own actions. I'm not a selfish player, I only go so far in my gambits as I think will benefit town and not disrupt indivduals' reads too much. So I'd argue policy eliminating for something I am known for and will continue to do regardless will be silly. (Not if you think I'm mafia outside of that though of course).

[Seven]

Could someone give me a tl;dr on mathblade's post or should I read it?

[the worst]

Providing extensive meta of handling claims immaturely seems like a glorious way to make a plist like you, lol. Can your do something to help the game? Please?

Mathb's post is worth a read. Its laid out well and easier to digest than you'd think. It also contains actual opinions on things happening in game.

[bessie]

@bessie do we have woof-grr list coming?

NOT YET BUT I DO HAVE SOME VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM MY AFTERNOON:

hoku at farmers market.PNG (205.82 KiB) Viewed 1239 times

Apparently this has become the Big Issue for D2. The only time I've heard of town doing a fake power claim like this, it became a major historical event and the player involved mostly decided not to do that again; xkcd members may recall the phrase "pulling a freezeblade". My impression of Seven has therefore fallen off a cliff.

Didn’t Seven do the same thing in Brooklyn 99 Mafia? I don’t have time to search it right now but will take a look when I get home.

I subbed out of Brooklyn 99 early on, so I don't have any memories from that game.

Ok, I remember. I was in Hawaii and I had to replace you.

Anyway, Seven fake claimed as town in that game. His role was Seraph Knight but he claimed bulletproof. [pre-post edit Seven beat me to it. Oh and I forgot about Stellaris I think I mentally blocked that game from my mind.]

@bessie -> Yes it is mostly based off the fake claim gambit. Because the fake claim gambit is based off what I know, the worst was blocked. That’s knowledge. Anything based on D1 is based on interpretation. Interpretation is one of my weaker points so I focus on where I am strong.

Day one we know that we flash wagoned scum, something that almost never happens. If Jedi is town then one of the first two prominent voices is almost certainly town. If Jedi is scum then it’s more a “who cares” situation.

I want to see what the worst days of Jedi and then make a conclusion accordingly. Also, for Morgan I already am voting Seven so….? And mafia/cop checks should always be in null reads not active players as we can be sorted by our posting.

Well ok about the cop check, but if we’re going to solve active players based on their content, someone needs to analyze their content. If you’re not good at that type of analysis, and neither am I, and no one else seems to be doing much of it, then we’re not really getting anywhere.

Could someone give me a tl;dr on mathblade's post or should I read it?

What kind of question is that?? It’s game content; you should read it regardless of its apparent immediate usefulness to you. All content is potentially important, if one is smart enough to see how.

[Seven]

@bessie MBs been saying random stuff all game that doesn't seem to align with the actual game we're playing, it's a bit dizzying to deal with tbh. And from a glance it seems to be all about my claim.

@worst, I posted my reads and what not a bit ago. As well as reads in that post.

[madge]

fwiw the reading i got from your quote from me in stellaris was that i was mad you lied and wanted to vote you off for it?

i don't like fake claims as a meta thing, even if long-term they do good for town. right now this fake claim, if from a townie, has got you and me at each others' throats for no good reason and making me ignore other people who could actually be scum. yes i know this is a "look what you made me do" but you wanted to get reactions and ooo boy you've gotten a reaction.

if you want me to get off you, who is scum? mathblade? i'm willing to leave you alive overnight and see if any more info comes to light that will help with your alignment, but we need a better option, and it's looking like in a sea of power roles overnight nothing useful and worth sharing has been discovered.

@bessie thank u for dog pic it is beautiful

[Seven]

@madge, the worst

[somitomi]

Votecount

Votee (Votes/Elimination) - Voter(s)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Seven (4/6) - madge, the worst, Wam, MathBlade
MathBlade (1/6) - moody7277
madge (1/6) - Seven

Not Voting (6): bessie, MathBlade, SuperJedi224, Suzaku, Wam, xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx

Day 2 Elimination Deadline will be 10 AM PST on December 2nd.

Reminder that it takes 4 votes to eliminate by plurality and 6 to eliminate by majority.

Wam is V/LA until Tuesday lunchtime

[Seven]

more or less in agreement with moody. some adjustments

bessie - led sabrar elim
moody - if jedi is town, moody wouldn't have pushed the idea that sabrar looks bad on a townJedi flip. If jedi is scum, moody wouldn't have switched onto him EoD when the wagon was dissolving.
WMU - sheeped onto sabrar
Morgan - was leading the wagon away from jedi, tone, dritini
wam - was leading the wagon away from jedi, supported sab elim

Madge - suspiciously accurate reads so far
Suzaku - readlist seemed different than what i saw of him last game
SuperJedi - seemed like he was being bussed by the worst and sab
MathBlade - isn't reading the game or answering questions, speaking nonsensically in general

the worst - no scumhunt drive, went after easy targets, visited wisp
Wisp - said that his role would be confirmed too so that doesn't mean anything about jedi's alignment. this reasoning only makes sense if he's scum.

(jk about wisp)

Consider my vote on Mathblade in spirit.

My read list is right here. Top is town core, middle and bottom are scum pool. The list is ordered but WMU and moody are more or less on same level.

[MathBlade]

That list is a useless spam list. Wisp is flipped town. Me and worst being scum is downright illogical (already explained why). You’re still saying I am illogical despite not reading my posts…like what?

[Seven]

Bruh youve skipped over a dozen of my posts. And you don't have an avatar. Wisp is the only joke in that list, how is it spam?

[MathBlade]

Bruh youve skipped over a dozen of my posts. And you don't have an avatar. Wisp is the only joke in that list, how is it spam?

Me having an avatar or not is irrelevant again to my alignment. I have not “skipped over” a lot of posts there was nothing that merited a response with a limited post count.

You are holding an untenable position with both me and the worst as scum and are not addressing the logical flaws I have pointed out with doing so. When asked to address this you instead double down on outdated old reads. I ask you to be a paragon of townieness and I get this.

I may not be the best scum hunter but anyone who actively makes it harder to do so and refuses to address the thread and work together is a great elim.

[Morgan]

You really should get an avatar, Math. It takes thirty seconds.

(Reading now.)

[Seven]

Me having an avatar or not is irrelevant again to my alignment.

Sounds familiar. Anyway, it makes it difficult for me to read your posts. I'm visual and it helps to have an image to anchor words to. Additionally, it helps act as a boundary between posts to easily distinguish yours from others.

I have not “skipped over” a lot of posts there was nothing that merited a response with a limited post count.

I asked you multiple questions that I've had to reiterate and you still haven't fully answered. I'd like for you to fully list each town member that was town reading you at the time of your thought experiment and show with quotes how the bessie push was based on the premise of Suzaku scum. This is what I mean by you just saying random things. It's a cluster of unbacked stuff that just makes it hard to take what you're saying seriously (no offense).

You are holding an untenable position with both me and the worst as scum and are not addressing the logical flaws I have pointed out with doing so. When asked to address this you instead double down on outdated old reads. I ask you to be a paragon of townieness and I get this.

I'll look through your argument, but ftr you're not even on the same plane as my Ducky read. I do think your tone is town. Ducky is scum regardless of who else is scum.

[the worst]

@bessie MBs been saying random stuff all game that doesn't seem to align with the actual game we're playing, it's a bit dizzying to deal with tbh. And from a glance it seems to be all about my claim.

@worst, I posted my reads and what not a bit ago. As well as reads in that post.

your reads haven't changed?