Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Apologies I didn't get around to posting further yesterday. It was a busy day, and today may be similar, though I don't know. Hopefully I'll have the time to work on some full reads later on, including finishing my Snide Sniper analysis. I'll post a serious vote either way by the end of my day.

I'll need to go over his posts a bit more, but I'm not really liking LaserGuy's scum read of The Snide Sniper. My gut says it feels off, and it might be that he's overemphasizing things that are natural from a newbie and therefore not really alignment indicative.

Responses etc a bit later (hopefully).

[madge]

It is the afternoon.

Votals:
boomfrog (1) - heuri
suzaku (1) - Patzer
heuri (2) - somitomi, suzaku
Patzer (2) - boomfrog, moody

11 players alive, 6 to eliminate.

Dusk starts in 23 hours, 26 minutes.

Alternative countdown timer (do you prefer this one? if they disagree - they shouldn't but who knows - the top one is canon)

[somitomi]

Sorry everyone, I went a bit AWOL there for no adequate reason.

A rushed reads list. I know there's question for me I haven't answered yet so feel free to re-ask them and I'll get to them tomorrow.

I concur with LaserGuy's question, is everyone town?

Click for pending questions I have

"attempting to appear as having a town mindset" it just about the scummiest anyone could possibly be though, so I'm not sure how you wound up assigning town-points for that. More importantly though, if you don't have a read on Jimbob, why did you answer that question with a reason for townreading him?

I'm currently undecided of Boomfrog is scum taking advantage of my slightly scummy appearance right now, or if this is Boomfrog who thinks they laid a trap and actually caught a scum. Thinking more about it, the latter seems more likely.

Somi, what is your opinion of me right now?

Why do you think the latter is more likely and in which post do you think BoomFrog set the trap?
Also, I concur with wam, why me?

I don't know/remember heury well enough to know if scum!heury would be unlikely to bus his team-mate. Beyond that, he's not interacted with The Snide Sniper at all directly, as far as I see. His Town read on him could be genuine for town!heury. I don't think scum!heury would be so strong in his opinions of town!TSS though, which suggests to me scum!heury might indicate buddy!TSS, especially given the lack of direct interaction.

Scumreading a mate is definitely within Heury's range, he did it to me with excellent results in WWZ Mafia. Having nothing but townreads now makes me feel like he's trying extra hard to avoid hinting at his mate, because he knows some of us could spot that sort of misdirection.
I do agree with bessie that the setup makes bussing unlikely anyway.

Ok. But do you think they’re too cheeky to come from mafia!heury specificly, who is kinda always cheeky in an endearing way?

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's a bit more brazen than I'd expect.

On the use of "we" being a tell or not - I absolutely don't see it that way. An explicit claim of "I am town" is meaningless, as town is the default public position for all players (in most games, anyway). It may be marginally more likely for a (particularly newbie) scum player to make such a claim, but I'm not sure that even that is the case. However, even if it were the case that town claiming was scummy, simply using "we" is such a weak form of it, that I will hold it to be totally meaningless in terms of alignment indication.
And in any case, it can just as easily refer to "we" the group of players.

This, QFT and such

WOO
jimbob
Boomfrog
Suzaku
LaserGuy
bessie
wam
moody
patzer
SnideSniper
Heury
BOO

[jimbobmacdoodle]

@somitomi, why is The Snide Sniper so low on your list? I got the impression from earlier (perhaps incorrectly) that you didn't view him as likely scum.

By the way, in case it wasn't clear by now, my placing of Sniper in their own category in my earlier list was related to the pressure vote. I didn't want to give away that I didn't really view him as scum, but also didn't want to outright lie at this time.

[Wam]

Right sorry for the delay but I'm not alone in that one! Also my brain is still foggy from the cold (not Covid) I have so if the below doesn't make sense I'm sorry!

My detailed reads are below but my main concern from yesterday is Huery elimination just feels easy. As per Sabrar's usual logic that if it feels easy it's not normally correct. But don't get me wrong I think Huery is scum more detail below. The other factor to consider is 2 of the roles (Cult & survivor) we want to get rid of don't have any support at this stage so should be easy....

Town

jimbob
Pretty clearly town here. I think the reaction fishing is townie and I don't think scum jimbob pivots to Laser now unless they are partners with Huery. Even then I think Jimbob pushed Patzer not Laser here. Town

laserguy
Tunneling on Huery and Snide which matches what I remember from Meta. He is putting good pressure where needed such as here. Town

suzaku
Posts are mainly towny. The only post that I don't like is here as that could be scum suzaku leaving their options open. It could also be town suazaku being unsure of reads though. Town

somitomi
Sassy Somi comes across towny to me as Scum Somi would probably keep quieter and try and slide through day 1. Certainly I seem to remember that in the last game somi was quieter that they have been in this game. Somi has slipped down the read list by not posting for a while and there has been a lot of content since. Where is your head at somi? As per Moody I would like to see a reads list. Ninajd so moved up 2 spaces. Town

BoomFrog
Reading through just comes across town. The only reason they are not higher up this list is that I have seen Boom fake this as scum previously. Town Lean

moody7277
So I started this re read with the fact I couldn't say one thing positive or negative Moody had done which is always an interesting start to a read list.
Early reads list as I remember and actually the points here are good here. Post here comes across townie to me. here. One thing I would like to see is an update to that reads list? Town Lean

Neutral

bessie
Historically I have got strong town vibes from town bessie. Games recently she has come across more neutral early game so I'm giving her a day 1 pass. Neutral

Scum

the snide sniper
As previously stated I don't like the reads list here this post is better here. First read list my view hasn't changed from "I'm getting vibes of a newbie scum trying to make a reads list without showing TMI. Its missing what would expect from a newbie town but I can't articulate what it is missing." Second one has lost newbie vibes but it still could be a scum newbie who is lost. Scum Lean

@snide sniper I know bessie answered but EBWOP = edit by way of post.

patzer
I disagree with activity levels being used here, it feel like a bit of a cop out.

If patzer is scum laser is a potential partner as this doesn't make much sense to me https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=7424#p7424. Surely any pings irrespective of how mixed should trump activity. Scum

heuristically_alone
Highly active at game start with activity trending down.
Some really odd posts even on re read i.e here, basically a scum claim....
reads list with no scum here

Now I always try and take RL issues at face value. But the last game Huery under a lot of pressure day 1 as scum did a disappearing act as well. https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... -over.568/ Scum


I'm feeling that we should give snide sniper a newbie pass into day 2 and then that leaves my options as Huery and Patzer.

Vote Heuristically alone

[Wam]

FYI L-3

[Wam]

I will be around for deadline but I'm worried that we are 16 hours from deadline, thread is dead.

[moody7277]

Starting after Wed morning my time

bessie: correction to me about bf research, test vote on Madge, huery discussion, experiment with modvote turns out negative, setup spec, Snide just new, flavor spec, not happy with heury

So far can infer maybe two reads out of her, so I would like to echo boomfrog's request. Following self described "reactive" posting style. Nothing I'd call overtly scummy. +3

boomfrog: vote heury with justification, asks Snide about his interpretation of gambit, actually made a non-flashy gambit via jimbob, reads list with LG somi most town, huery patzer me as scum, votes for patzer, curious about heury's sticky seemingly joke vote, asks bessie for definite reads list

Despite "not vibing" with me, I think he is looking townie at this point. +3.5

huery: Snide town, banter with wam, declares Snide non-voteable, suspicious of somi, reads list with LG and jimbob town, patzer suzaku neutral, bf joke scum, I'm not on it

Reads list seems rather drecky as the reads on wam and somi look like negging. Other later content seems to be trying to dilute earlier scummy posts. -2.5

jimbob: questions for several, vote on Snide is SDK-like, snap reads with somi, LG, wam town, huery and Snide scum, wants reads from Snide others, no info on Snide-huery team, Snide opinion trap, setup spec, possible huery-Snide based on results but no other conlusions yet, slight suspicion on LG

Taking the role as gadfly seriously. Effort put into the Snide opinion gambit looks like it will pay well once he finishes analysis. +3.5

LaserGuy: questions for several, points out contradiction by heury, likes jimbob being "feisty", wants more thoughtful opinions from patzer, reads list with BF jimbob town, patzer heuty scum, pokes suzaku on Snide read, wants further from patzer

Lots of good questions. Seems more focused on getting patzer of the two new players to be more forthcoming with content. +3

patzer: flat reads list with only huery as scummy, counters common town read of LG with possible LG-heury scum team, scummier reads based on activity, answering bf on setup spec.

Very shaky reads list, other content is a bit thin. Suzaku joke vote never moved, and also had some flimsy justification thrown on top of it. -2

somi: very suspicious of heury for attempting to appear townie, votes heury, jimbob bf LG toen, curious about heury and Snide's reaction to bf, falls on the Snide is new rather than scummy side, T>S list with jimbob bf town, huery Snide scum

Earliness to vote heury is in his favor, means he's less likely influenced by groupthink. +1.5

(It still kinda surprises me that I became the snarker in these games)

That's what you get for having Daria as an avatar.

Suazku: game summary, reads list flat other than LG bf town, huery scum, votes huery, bessie a mystery due to posting style, points out townslip of Snide, responses to bessie, calls patzer out on her vote

Seems overly focused on bessie. Very few other interactions. That reads list is extremely fluffy. -1

Snide Sniper: some reads LG wam town, patzer scummy for minimizing heury read

Still seems to be floundering a bit. -0.5 but with a bit of an error bar.

wam: NAI from player behavior, questions to heury, suspicious of his read on Snide, has Snide at neutral due to lack of content, drops him down to scum with patzer and heury, answers jimbob about Snide read, asks suzaku about patzer bessie reads, questions patzer about her model, echoes LG's suspicion of heury, reads list with jimbob LG town, Snide patzer heury scum, votes heury

Thoughtful content. Does seem to conform to the groupthink a bit. +1

Town
jimbob
boomfrog
bessie
LaserGuy
somi
wam
----
Snide
Suzaku
patzer
heury
Scum

[bessie]

Quick request for everyone, please don’t change the text for the spoiler tags. On my computer I don’t see anything that indicates the spoiler (I do see a little arrow on my phone). This is what somitomi’s spoiler looks like to me:

snip.PNG (5.8 KiB) Viewed 2766 times

[bessie]

@patzer and @Bessie: My real question I was trying to ask indirectly was, which scum group do you think has which flavor? How do you match up mafia, cult and survivor to Madge's Maniacs, Sabrar's Socialites and ??? ?

I think this is Sabrar’s group, and that the bribe is this refers to the mafia’s night-elimination:

the well-to-do had quickly realised that it takes only a modest bribe to have someone call off their vendetta, and set about applying them

I think this is Madge’s group, and that this refers to cult chat:

and the pizzazz lovers created a private facebook group that they invited a select few people into

I think that the Antisocial Survivor does not have a facebook group, which would fit with being antisocial.

[boomfrog]

I think there's consensus that Snide Sniper gets to stay today. As a newbie if they really are town that should shine through. They are the most redeemable slot of the common bottom three.

Seeing as deadline is the middle of the night let's not wait for last minute shenanigans. Let's try to get to a real majority elimination today.

Everyone vote for heuy or patzer. Let's see where the chips fall when the pressure is on. Anyone not voting within those two is just helping the Mafia.

[boomfrog]

Oh right, yeah, half ready through the day I reread the intro flavor and now she with Bessie and JimBob's assignment of flavor to factions. However, when JimBob made his first post I thought they were the other way because bribe=recruitment. Which I thought meant JimBob must be town (or survivor) since he truly had no knowledge of the factions flavors. But all that is null now.

@Bessie: When did you figure out the faction flavor connection? Right away or just now when composing an answer to my question, or somewhere in between? Did you find it obvious or confusing?

[bessie]

Catch up post.

I'm definitely not going to not try to read you, don't worry. I'm just stating for the record that I find it hard to do so.

If you have any questions that would help you read me, you can ask. After all I am a reactive player.

On the use of "we" being a tell or not - I absolutely don't see it that way. An explicit claim of "I am town" is meaningless, as town is the default public position for all players (in most games, anyway). It may be marginally more likely for a (particularly newbie) scum player to make such a claim, but I'm not sure that even that is the case. However, even if it were the case that town claiming was scummy, simply using "we" is such a weak form of it, that I will hold it to be totally meaningless in terms of alignment indication.
And in any case, it can just as easily refer to "we" the group of players.

Disagree. And interesting that you only discuss the use of “we” as an attempt by someone to align themselves with town. I specifically said in that post that I was also considering that it might be an attempt by scum to signal their scum partner, since there is no day chat.

Just a note for deadline planning: The deadline is at 2:00 am my time and will be even later for people east of me in the US/Canada, so I expect a bunch of us will probably not be around for the last several hours of the day phase.

I will not be around for the last 3-4 hours before deadline. If anyone has any specific questions for me, I would prefer to have them in the next 8-10 hours so I have time to answer them.

Scumreading a mate is definitely within Heury's range, he did it to me with excellent results in WWZ Mafia. Having nothing but townreads now makes me feel like he's trying extra hard to avoid hinting at his mate, because he knows some of us could spot that sort of misdirection.
I do agree with bessie that the setup makes bussing unlikely anyway.

Ok. But do you think they’re too cheeky to come from mafia!heury specificly, who is kinda always cheeky in an endearing way?

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's a bit more brazen than I'd expect.

Ok. How do you reconcile these remarks with having heury and Snide Sniper at the bottom of your WOO-BOO list?

@Bessie: Do you think you will be able to make a woof to grr list by the end of day?

Sorry BoomFrog, I’m sick and I fell asleep early last night.


Gut Woof-Grr list without a reread, which may get revised later after I do my reads.

Woof
bessie
jimbobmacdoodle
LaserGuy
BoomFrog
moody7277
Wam
Somitomi
The Snide Sniper
patzer
Suzaku
heuristically_alone
Grr


Ninja'd by BoomFrog will answer in a separate post.

[bessie]

@Bessie: When did you figure out the faction flavor connection? Right away or just now when composing an answer to my question, or somewhere in between? Did you find it obvious or confusing?

I’ve had this in my mind for a while. The reason that I didn’t answer your question in this post is that when I was making my daily catch up wall, I quoted your post as I did my read through but didn’t have the reply written because I wanted to go through the flavor and find quotes to support my answer. When I was previewing my post, I saw that I had forgotten to answer that question. I had meant to come back to it last night, but I didn’t.

[boomfrog]

Np Bessie. Take care of yourself. Will you lay down a vote? There's not much Day left.

[bessie]

Can everyone post if they expect to be on line around deadline?
(Mostly the non US people)

I am leaning on voting for heury. I can vote now but that will place heury at L-2.

[LaserGuy]

Apologies I didn't get around to posting further yesterday. It was a busy day, and today may be similar, though I don't know. Hopefully I'll have the time to work on some full reads later on, including finishing my Snide Sniper analysis. I'll post a serious vote either way by the end of my day.

I'll need to go over his posts a bit more, but I'm not really liking LaserGuy's scum read of The Snide Sniper. My gut says it feels off, and it might be that he's overemphasizing things that are natural from a newbie and therefore not really alignment indicative.

Responses etc a bit later (hopefully).

I feel that you and Suzaku are doing kind of the same thing when you are townreading him. You're taking a post that is probably NAI and trying to claim it is a townslip. TSS is kind of scummy, so I am scum leaning them. For the record, when I look for newbie Town, I usually look for this:

Newbie Town is an archetype. There are a large number of people who, in their first few games in mafia as Town express very similar sorts of behaviours. Specifically, I would put the following as fairly standard hallmark features of newbie Town: 1) claiming early and unnecessarily; 2) assuming that anyone who tunnels them must be mafia and responding as such; 3) responding very awkwardly to pressure; 4) generally maintaining a low level of consistency. I have never seen a player with <5 games of experience expressing these behaviours not flip Town.

I don't really feel that SS has expressed any of the behaviours that I would characterize as newbie Town except possibly the last one, and there are a few things they have done that feel off to me. But regardless, I am not interested in yeeting SS today. BoomFrog is correct that if they are Town, they will likely prove themselves at some point or other down the line.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Okay reads lists time. I'll fold in the promised Snide Sniper analysis as I go.

LaserGuy:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: Welcomes TSS & patzer, asking for more mafia experience. Asks me why factions in the order I listed.
Post 2: heuristically_alone's response to TSS re. why me town feels out of place, giving too much info vibes. Asks why not waiting for BF to reply first. Town leans on BF and moody.
Post 3: responds to heury re. disagreement with interpretation - not about agreement, is about how and why asnswered, and repeats why not wait for BF.
Post 4: thinks question is NAI, and has me at null. Unsure about what BF is basing analysis off of, but not surprised seeing things differently this early.
Post 5: continues conversation with HA, thinks BF would be offended thought read based off something superficial.
Post 6: Quizzes HA re. TSS post feeling townie. Prods somitomi asking who he likes as town. Coaches TSS re. importance of giving reads. Asks patzer re. what he thinks of me, and for other impressions.
Post 7: Continues argument with HA re. read/non-read of me. Wants his explanation of TSS as Town. Comments on BF re. HA discussion. Likes my feistiness.
Post 8: Responds to patzer's question re. why LG asked about me specifically - wanted to get an understanding of thought process. Asks why BF ended up on town side, unlike himself and somitomi.
Post 9: Reads list: me + BF town; Suzaku + somitomi, town lean'; bessie moody null town; wam null scum (PoE scum read - nothing much stood out); TSS scum lean (no newbie Town vibe, not interested in answers, not engaged); patzer scum lean (keeping under the radar, non-committal, would be more engaged if town); heuristically_alone probably scum.
Post 10: Doesn't think TSS we comment should be higher than null; not interested in answer; never follows up on BF, and doesn't give read of me. Thinks very weak tell to assume newbie Town. Finds it suspicious that SS is not more paranoid about being scum read.
Post 11: @heury - so everyone is Town?
Post 12: @patzer - what is suspicious in LG's play?
Post 13: deadline planning: not around.

On his Snide Sniper interactions: I'm not sure I agree with his conclusions, and an argument could be made that he's putting pressure on TSS because it looked like he'd get easy support from people like me. I actually got an initial possible feeling of a TSS buddy before he started posting concerns about them, due to a hint of coaching, but that could easily have come from anybody, so it's really null, and I don't think scum!LG would have pressured buddy!TSS the way he did.

Away from his Snide Sniper interactions, I don't have any real objections. I think his reads match much of my gut feelings, although I haven't read patzer yet, so don't know if his suspicions are justified. Nothing feels particularly out of place and his arguments against heuristically_alone all make sense to me and sometimes even match exactly what I was thinking, but hadn't got around to posting yet.

LaserGuy is always one of the players I find hard to read. I'm putting a mild town lean on him at this point, but may revise once I have a relative order, especially given the fact that scum can do valid scum-hunting this game, since, assuming my setup spec is right, Cult will be hunting Mafia and vice versa, not even accounting for the Survivor.

End of post edit: revising LaserGuy down to slightly scummy, but not by much - see my comments further down.

moody7277:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: RVS boomfrog, promising to unvote if entertaining D1 gambit. Thinks should treat survivor like SK without kill.
Post 2: Accepts BF's point about setup meaning no need for gambit; LG's question on my ordering looks townie. Unvotes.
Post 4: early reads (LG town; bessie, BF, me, somitomi, town lean; heury, slightly scummy; neutral/insufificent info for wam/patzer/TSS). TSS seems befuddled, nonplussed by my vote on him.
Post 5: comments on his slight negative wam read, essentially meta.
Post 6: more explanation of above.
Post 7: joke bessie obviously scum. Thinks patzer's lack of effort in her read of him is suspicious. Prods patzer for more info on their read of LG.
Post 8: Reevaluates patzer a bit, making them as voteable as heury. Reanalyses TSS, finds mostly getting up to speed, with only latest post having meaningful content, and when prompted; gives him a -0.5 rating.
Post 9: Apologises about pronouns.
Post 10: patzer's content = townieness model is broken, nervous lower levels are based on this, has as voteable but thinks heury more likely their vote, due to earlier reads and him going dark. Suzaku +2 due to townslip comments bucking the groupthink.
Post 11: switches vote to patzer.

On The Snide Sniper: seems to be largely not paying much attention to them, even after I started putting pressure on them, although there isn't a huge amount to be stuck into, so I don't find this too negative. Cynical view here is that he's given him a slight negative rating so as to be able to sneakily persuade others to have a negative view of TSS without actively pushing them himself.

Beyond that, moody is another of those players I struggle to read. Nothing is objectionable here. He's not prodded people all that much directly, but I think that's fairly normal for moody, if I'm not mistaken. Mild town for now.

Preview EDIT given that moody has posted another reads list. Nothing much to change my opinion here except I don't agree with his comment re. Suzaku's reads list being "extremely fluffy", especially given it was made fairly early. Maybe slight decrease in my read here.

patzer:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: Rusty, RVS Suzaku for not posting yet.
Post 2: reads list: me lean town; moody neutral (can't latch on); heury: vibes point towards lean scum; LG pushing people sensible, neutral, but funny feeling; TSS not enough activity neutral; somitomi hard to tell, neutral; wam no obvious clues, neutral; bessie honest analysis, pressured heury, leans town; BF went along with focus on heury, not sure neutral versus lean town; Suzaku no info. Asks LG why asked about me specifically.
Post 3: moody's list looks reasonable. Explains thoughts on LG, thought possible LG/Heury team due to possible public distancing by LG and slightly odd response from Heury; also possibly LG scum, heury not and LG is attempting to direct away attention. Explains reason for low activity. Thanks suzaku for rough summary. somi didn't jump out at her. Posts tentative list with TSS, heury as bottom two, me, BF top two; low reads based on activity. Nothing particular against TSS, but lack of activity could be a sign.
Post 4: List was tentative. Scum could be less active trying to fly under radar. Heury and LG have pinged as scum signs, but LG is mixed.
Post 5: spotted BF's question re. setup, and explains her thoughts on division.

On The Snide Sniper: patzer's only comments around The Snide Sniper are about their lack of content, yet despite that (or rather because of it according to her), she's put them second from bottom on the list. I don't think patzer is a buddy with The Snide Sniper - I think she'd have made more of an effort to interact, or at least wouldn't have put her that low. I also find it suspicious that the low position of Snide Sniper on their list appears after I've prodded for comments, and there's some evidence of negative views of The Snide Sniper from others too.

Beyond that: I do agree with others' concerns that patzer's reads have been weak at best. I also find some of their comments a bit of a cop out, e.g. somitomi I had reasonably strong town vibes from fairly early on, but patzer says "hard to tell" and places a neutral label on it. Moderately scummy, but not likely a buddy with heuristically_alone.

somitomi:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: RVS moody, for not being hyped enough.
Post 2: Responds to BF's question about why focused on moody. Comments on "attempting to appear as having a town mindset" being scummy, and doesn't understand why heury would assign town points for it. Also questions heury why he gave a town-reading reason for me, if no actual read.
Post 3: Continues to question heury. Thinks his reads are superficial. Assumes my Snide Sniper opinion is serious, and asks me to explain why.
Post 4: prods heury for an answer again re. post 2.
Post 5: votes heury for not answering questions. Thinks me, BF and LG are town due to mindmelding on heury. Asks me why TSS is in a separate category for my list. Comments on heury's "wary of somi's town tone" post.
Post 6: Responds to bessie's accusation that somi ignored her question. Suggests patzer should order people from townie to scummy. Questions TSS on BF/risky move. Interesting both heury and TSS think BF is doing something sneaky. Might switch votes to TSS but heury vote not achieved desired result. Asked for clarity on my Snide Sniper position re. heury co-alignment.
Post 7: Like's Suzaku's entry. Happy with my response. Activity is unreliable scumtell. Asks patzer re. evidence for town!LG. Accepts Suzaku's point that newbie scum wouldn't stick necks out. Not a fan of TSS reads, but willing to give time to adjust. heury remarks might be coming from mafia, but ignoring questions could go either way. Silence is concerning.
Post 8: Concurs with LG's question re. why heury has everyone town. Reiterates questions. Scumreading buddy is within heury's range. Thinks town reads are trying to avoid hinting at his mate. Agrees with bessie setup making bussing unlikely. Thinks cheekiness from heury more brazen than expected. Agrees with suzaku re. "we" in TSS comments. Posts ordered list with me, BF top; heury, TSS bottom.

On The Snide Sniper: somi's comments around TSS are initially all in response to my scum read and vote and related points. He does expand a bit more. I was a little surprised by somi's apparent willingness to switch to TSS when I asked him to, given this fairly limited comments. He also appears lower than patzer on the list, whom others, including myself, are finding negative, despite the acceptance of Suzaku's comments.

@somitomi - why is The Snide Sniper lower than patzer in your recent ordered list?

General feeling here is that somitomi could possibly be a scum player using apparent other's negative views to help with an easy elimination target.

Aside from TSS: if there was a reason to breadcrumb being the cult leader, I think somitomi's opening post ("moody isn't hyped enough") would be one for it! I doubt that though. Beyond that, I said earlier that I found somitomi's comments townie, and I don't think that's really changed. As noted above, his read of TSS seems weirdly low given some of his other comments, so that is maybe a minor point against somi. I think his pressure on heury makes sense, and I broadly agree with it, so overall this would be a fairly strong town read except a) see my comments re. scum being able to scum hunt and b) the TSS point above. Demoting for now down to approximately neutral.

Suzaku:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: apologises for delayed start.
Post 2: recaps game state. Doesn't follow BF's town-read on me. Finds my early comments neutral. Thinks Town!BF picked me to push town, to see if he could draw out scummy reactions. Provides possible mafia gambit. Doesn't think BF would do this D1 in multi-faction game, but not impossible. Agrees weak town read on LG for order question being genuine scum hunting, including follow-up. Doesn't think heury's initial post re. TSS question was particularly scummy, but also not townie, but follow-up reactions and arguments do suggest it is. Noted no non-town reads by heury. Also notes heury's BF is likely town but still voting, which is weird. No strong reads, but posts overall reads with heuristically_alone as scummiest, followed by patzer, with LG and BF towniest. Votes Heury.
Post 3: Responds to wam re. weak scum read on patzer - due to low content level/weak reads. Most posts with same level of reads would be scummier. Finds bessie difficult to read due to posting style and also difficult distinguishing her town from scum. She seems on meta, but not a strong town tell. Finds her mod vote interesting, but not sure what kind of tell it might be.
Post 4: Accepts BF apology.
Post 5: No strong scum reads other than heury.
Post 6: Accepting TSS as newbie, doesn't think newbie scum (who would know, or at least strongly suspect that I am town), would make a comment like that early in the game. He expands his comment and gives reads. Feels TSS's reads are coming from a "trying to process" place rather than "I know who's who". Sticking to town read for now.
Post 7: Seeing a strong case for newbie scum TSS would make him reassess.
Post 8: discussion with bessie re. meta read + somi is similar. Accepts bessie's reasoning for mod vote.
Post 9: Continues discussion with bessie. Doesn't agree with other's comments re. the "we" statement. Asks patzer why her vote is still on Suzaku.

On The Snide Sniper: for his first few posts, Suzaku only mentions The Snide Sniper in passing, and certainly not in any way indicating any alignment or view of him. His first comment that gives any alignment indication eventually comes in response to my question. I like the fact that this opinion didn't go with the flow of just scum reading TSS for low content, and instead sticking his neck out for him. This is particularly the case should TSS ever flip town. On the other hand, a scum!Suzaku or TSS flip could suggest the other is a scum buddy.

Beyond that, I find Suzaku's early reads list mostly matching my own feelings. On the other hand, it has a lack of scum when there's likely to be 4 scum, in my opinion (this isn't isolated to Suzaku mind you). On that note:

@Suzaku - what is your setup spec for this game? Also, please post an updated reads list.

Overall, moderate town read.

I'm skipping The Snide Sniper for a general read, because I already did that read yesterday morning, and his one post since then doesn't strike me as changing my opinion much. I like that at least he isn't trying to hide his opinions on other players, and I'm willing to accept what he's posted so far as newbie. Not going to be my vote today.

I'm running out of time now, so am going to defer my wam analysis and actual reads of bessie and BoomFrog until later, quite possibly start of D2, so that I can spend time on heuristically_alone and decide between patzer or him.

heuristically_alone:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1: my mod question is coming from a town mindset (responding to TSS).
Post 2: "Will the flavour of two separate parties take form in the setup of the game". Votes BF for no gambit.
Post 3: mod question.
Post 4: asks LG whether he believes with his interpretation re. question.
Post 5: answers question because he knew the answer.
Post 6: Town lean on LG for pressure on him.
Post 7: Has BF ever done gambit as mafia? Only seen as town. Joke vote always becomes end day D1 vote.
Post 8: Asks bessie to answer his previous question.
Post 9: Not made a read on me; my post has "we we we" in it referring to town. Thinks I'm at least attempting to appear as a town mindset.
Post 10: Undecided on if BF is scum taking advantage of his scummy appearance, or if BF thinks laid a trap and caught scum. Latter seems more likely. Asks somi what his opinion of him is.
Post 11: Answers me re. Halloween game. Reads TSS as town, based on response to BF.
Post 12: Sure will devolve to normal self as game goes on. Thinks answer to wam's "why Somi?" question would be apparent - waiting until somi answers to respond.
Post 13: Sarcastic? "Maybe" in response to wam and playing to town meta too hard.
Post 14: TSS not going to be his vote today.
Post 15: Only votes for people he thinks is scum. somi's last game was mafia and was read as town from get go, so wary of his town tone. Also saw seen TSS's post as townie, was stating why. Interesting BF jumped to the conclusion that he was attempting to explain.
Post 16: despondent that he's being scum read when sharing honest opinion.
Post 17: Crazy couple of days, so long gap. Posts town to scum list with reasoning: LG pressure = most towniest, me - first post was phrased like a townie would interpret the OP and town role; somi scum likes to ask lots of questions; wam = more active than previous game, and is trying harder, wonders whether wam tries harder as scum, reading as town due to scum hunting; TSS - interprets his asking why I am townie trying to understand things, explains Town of Salem meta; bessie = normal town bessie; Suzaku & patzer true neutral - not paid much attention; BF - no gambit must be scum. Asks for questions to be reasked.
Post 18: sniped by Madge

I've not seen anything from heury's most recent post that changes my thoughts re The Snide Sniper and him. More generally, I can definitely see the argument for heury being scum, and agreed with the way the initial argument went, although interestingly when I just read his posts in isolation, I could definitely see a case for town!heury posting the first few posts in that sequence. In particular, The Snide Sniper's post with the infamous "we" actually could be taken to address the players in general, not BoomFrog specifically, since it didn't address BoomFrog specifically. In some ways, this is a slight negative point against LaserGuy, who didn't view it this way. That being said, his follow-up responses didn't say this at all, so my earlier scum view of heury, stands. I also don't like the content drop, although he's claiming RL, so that has to be taken into some consideration. Finally, there have been a couple of occasions where heuristically_alone has joked about not being town, which just doesn't sit right with me. I stand by my earlier scummy feeling overall.

More ninjas by bessie and BoomFrog. I'll be online at deadline, but may be a bit busy, so don't know if I'll be able to monitor it closely.

Town
Suzaku
somitomi
The Snide Sniper
moody
BoomFrog*
wam*
bessie*
LaserGuy
patzer
heuristically_alone
Scum

*position is provisional

Wild guess as to the faction assignments:
heuristically_alone: Antisocial survivor - due to despondency levels
patzer & bessie??: Mafia - PoE (bessie listed as partner but really got no clue here)
LaserGuy: Cult leader - not a likely buddy with patzer or heury, so PoE puts him here.

I'm not liking the fact that basically everybody has patzer and heury as scummy, but it's not impossible given the setup. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these is town though because of this, but it doesn't change the fact that I have them as my two scummiest reads.

I'm leaning towards a heury vote, but will hold off placing it for now. Will make sure to vote by day end, if it isn't going to cause a hammer, or if everybody is in agreement.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Apologies I didn't get around to posting further yesterday. It was a busy day, and today may be similar, though I don't know. Hopefully I'll have the time to work on some full reads later on, including finishing my Snide Sniper analysis. I'll post a serious vote either way by the end of my day.

I'll need to go over his posts a bit more, but I'm not really liking LaserGuy's scum read of The Snide Sniper. My gut says it feels off, and it might be that he's overemphasizing things that are natural from a newbie and therefore not really alignment indicative.

Responses etc a bit later (hopefully).

I feel that you and Suzaku are doing kind of the same thing when you are townreading him. You're taking a post that is probably NAI and trying to claim it is a townslip. TSS is kind of scummy, so I am scum leaning them. For the record, when I look for newbie Town, I usually look for this:

Newbie Town is an archetype. There are a large number of people who, in their first few games in mafia as Town express very similar sorts of behaviours. Specifically, I would put the following as fairly standard hallmark features of newbie Town: 1) claiming early and unnecessarily; 2) assuming that anyone who tunnels them must be mafia and responding as such; 3) responding very awkwardly to pressure; 4) generally maintaining a low level of consistency. I have never seen a player with <5 games of experience expressing these behaviours not flip Town.

I don't really feel that SS has expressed any of the behaviours that I would characterize as newbie Town except possibly the last one, and there are a few things they have done that feel off to me. But regardless, I am not interested in yeeting SS today. BoomFrog is correct that if they are Town, they will likely prove themselves at some point or other down the line.

How does the fact that TSS has played Town of Salem before factor into this calculation?

[LaserGuy]

Apologies I didn't get around to posting further yesterday. It was a busy day, and today may be similar, though I don't know. Hopefully I'll have the time to work on some full reads later on, including finishing my Snide Sniper analysis. I'll post a serious vote either way by the end of my day.

I'll need to go over his posts a bit more, but I'm not really liking LaserGuy's scum read of The Snide Sniper. My gut says it feels off, and it might be that he's overemphasizing things that are natural from a newbie and therefore not really alignment indicative.

Responses etc a bit later (hopefully).

I feel that you and Suzaku are doing kind of the same thing when you are townreading him. You're taking a post that is probably NAI and trying to claim it is a townslip. TSS is kind of scummy, so I am scum leaning them. For the record, when I look for newbie Town, I usually look for this:

Newbie Town is an archetype. There are a large number of people who, in their first few games in mafia as Town express very similar sorts of behaviours. Specifically, I would put the following as fairly standard hallmark features of newbie Town: 1) claiming early and unnecessarily; 2) assuming that anyone who tunnels them must be mafia and responding as such; 3) responding very awkwardly to pressure; 4) generally maintaining a low level of consistency. I have never seen a player with <5 games of experience expressing these behaviours not flip Town.

I don't really feel that SS has expressed any of the behaviours that I would characterize as newbie Town except possibly the last one, and there are a few things they have done that feel off to me. But regardless, I am not interested in yeeting SS today. BoomFrog is correct that if they are Town, they will likely prove themselves at some point or other down the line.

How does the fact that TSS has played Town of Salem before factor into this calculation?

Not at all. Forum mafia is a different game with a different meta. In the game where I am explaining what I consider newbie Town, the player I was talking about had, IIRC, a bunch of IRL mafia experience but no forum mafia experience (Trisscar in Sumting mafia for those who are familiar with the Smashboard games) and exhibited the same cluster of behaviours.

[LaserGuy]

I'm not planning on voting today unless it is to break a tie, but you can consider my vote to be on heury.

[somitomi]

I can be around a couple hours before the deadline, but I probably won't stick around to the end.

@somitomi, why is The Snide Sniper so low on your list? I got the impression from earlier (perhaps incorrectly) that you didn't view him as likely scum.

It's partly because I didn't notice anyone else being terribly suspicious either and partly because I keep going back and forth on him. Laserguy made a point about Sniper not following up on his questions that pushed him towards the scummy side, but it definitely needs review.

Quick request for everyone, please don’t change the text for the spoiler tags. On my computer I don’t see anything that indicates the spoiler (I do see a little arrow on my phone). This is what somitomi’s spoiler looks like to me:

Sorry about that, I keep forgetting we don't get a spoiler button

Ok. How do you reconcile these remarks with having heury and Snide Sniper at the bottom of your WOO-BOO list?

I feel like I have this discussion every single game and I'm kinda surprised you don't remember me saying the same thing in WWZ:
It's D1 and I simply don't care if my scumreads make sense as a team or not.
Maybe I should put it in my sig

[Wam]

I'm not planning on voting today unless it is to break a tie, but you can consider my vote to be on heury.

Why ?

[LaserGuy]

I'm not planning on voting today unless it is to break a tie, but you can consider my vote to be on heury.

Why ?

Because I think Heury is scum, but don't want to actually vote today for reasons.

[madge]

It is the afternoon.

Votals:
boomfrog (1) - heuri
suzaku (1) - Patzer
heuri (3) - somitomi, suzaku, wam
Patzer (2) - boomfrog, moody

11 players alive, 6 to eliminate.

Dusk starts in 8 hours, 50 minutes.

Alternative countdown timer (do you prefer this one? if they disagree - they shouldn't but who knows - the top one is canon). (For some reason this one doesn't work in chrome on my work computer [i think it's my default zoom though as it looks ok when i zoom], but it works in Edge and Firefox?)