Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

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madge
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

Just want to address the criticism that you leveled at me personally:

You sent me a PM saying nothing but "GG" and then didn't post for several hours after that? In my experience, "GG" is said by the loser of a game immediately before logging off/abandoning/forfeiting. Maybe I shouldn't have been so concerned but I was truly worried, especially because it would mean either modkilling your slot (which is all kinds of Not Fun and bad for the integrity of the game at lategame like that) or finding someone to replace in a 35 page game for one vote and night action.

I was very confused and was wondering if you had decided to abandon the game or not. I made that post on discord as I had no way of contacting you other than via PM, and when I'd first contacted you about replacing (Heuri), you didn't open the PM and said you didn't check this forum. I didn't want to be in a position where we were waiting a day or two for you to show up, especially because your "GG" happening almost immediately after day start and being followed by complete silence from you lead me to believe that you might have decided to quit.

I was very reluctant to make a public prod but I felt like it was the best of several bad options.

(also, free information is perhaps a bit generous as at that time I would have said it to town, mafia, or cult, as it was possible for any of them to win, though would require suboptimal play from the opposing factions in the case of town)
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Zeniba »

madge wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:31 am Just want to address the criticism that you leveled at me personally:

You sent me a PM saying nothing but "GG" and then didn't post for several hours after that? In my experience, "GG" is said by the loser of a game immediately before logging off/abandoning/forfeiting. Maybe I shouldn't have been so concerned but I was truly worried, especially because it would mean either modkilling your slot (which is all kinds of Not Fun and bad for the integrity of the game at lategame like that) or finding someone to replace in a 35 page game for one vote and night action.

I was very confused and was wondering if you had decided to abandon the game or not. I made that post on discord as I had no way of contacting you other than via PM, and when I'd first contacted you about replacing (Heuri), you didn't open the PM and said you didn't check this forum. I didn't want to be in a position where we were waiting a day or two for you to show up, especially because your "GG" happening almost immediately after day start and being followed by complete silence from you lead me to believe that you might have decided to quit.

I was very reluctant to make a public prod but I felt like it was the best of several bad options.

(also, free information is perhaps a bit generous as at that time I would have said it to town, mafia, or cult, as it was possible for any of them to win, though would require suboptimal play from the opposing factions in the case of town)
I understand where you're coming from and appreciate the response.

(It does imply specifically in context that at least one of the living players is recruitable, and everyone had already guessed that mafia was not recruitable.)
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Sabrar »

I originally wanted to address two points but Madge ninjad me and was much more eloquent about it than I ever could be. So that leaves only one:
Zeniba wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:11 am The host outing me with their waypoints did not feel fun.
It was advertised from the beginning that cult-numbers would be published daily. One 'easy' way to avoid being outed by that is to start recruiting before N4.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

no problem! I wanted to make sure you knew I didn't do it lightly. I did it right before going to bed (9.15pm my local time, I go to bed at 9.30pm) and 7 hours after your "GG" PM, and those 7 hours were spent with me being anxious about whether I was going too far. I will note that it was too far for next time.

----

in terms of mechanics and leaking info about recruitability: you were at 2/1/1

mafia gets limmed: 2/0/1 (yes if town got limmed here you'd lose)

assume nobody is recruitable so the next morning you are still at : 2/0/1

nobody has results on you, it's theoretically possible to get another mislim. yes the bold cult count really screws you and i think out of 100 games that reach that situation you'd get limmed in 99, but there's an argument that could be spun about cult status not showing up in flips, somi being cult, and trying to get one of the townies to take seven out. I think a wily enough version of Zeniba and a gullible enough version of Jimbob could have it work out that way.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

Sabrar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:46 am I originally wanted to address two points but Madge ninjad me and was much more eloquent about it than I ever could be. So that leaves only one:
Zeniba wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:11 am The host outing me with their waypoints did not feel fun.
It was advertised from the beginning that cult-numbers would be published daily. One 'easy' way to avoid being outed by that is to start recruiting before N4.
Yeah I was disappointed that TSS decided not to recruit in the first few days; you can tell I was being true to the RNG assigning roles because if I put my thumb on the scale I wouldn't have assigned that role to him for a first game. But that sets you down a HELL of a rabbit hole if you start doing that because the players will always try to meta-game roles and that would suuuck
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

speaking of meta-gaming: whether the facebook group's gestures to get me and Sabrar back together worked or not in the flavour reflected whether the last day cycle had swung towards town or against town

so yes, there WERE hints in the flavour, and now you can read flavour forever with a fine-toothed comb

town just completely failed to lim scum for so long though that it was just full of me and sabrar getting madder and madder at each other :lol:
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Zeniba »

madge wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:54 am
Sabrar wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:46 am I originally wanted to address two points but Madge ninjad me and was much more eloquent about it than I ever could be. So that leaves only one:
Zeniba wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:11 am The host outing me with their waypoints did not feel fun.
It was advertised from the beginning that cult-numbers would be published daily. One 'easy' way to avoid being outed by that is to start recruiting before N4.
Yeah I was disappointed that TSS decided not to recruit in the first few days; you can tell I was being true to the RNG assigning roles because if I put my thumb on the scale I wouldn't have assigned that role to him for a first game. But that sets you down a HELL of a rabbit hole if you start doing that because the players will always try to meta-game roles and that would suuuck
My impression when thinking over the role was that it was probably more optimal to recruit as late as possible. Had I not been eliminated, I would have recruited one night earlier.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by somitomi »

Well, this game was a roller-coaster, congrats Zenniba and Jimbob and thanks to Madge and Sabrar for running it.
This might've been the worst I've ever did in a game of mafia, the one actually decent post I managed to make turned out to be completely utterly wrong. Sorry everyone, my head just wasn't in it.
madge wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:54 am Oh, one of the townsfolk who only ever seemed to stand in corners at parties and never went to places at night
Madge, I love the flavour all the way through, but please stop staring into my soul.
madge wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:56 am speaking of meta-gaming: whether the facebook group's gestures to get me and Sabrar back together worked or not in the flavour reflected whether the last day cycle had swung towards town or against town
When I saw the post in Gojoe explaining this, I laughed a little and then realised your relationship was getting worse and worse as the days went on.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

I write what I know, what can I say?

At least me and Sabrar could go grab coffee after it was all said and done, *DESPITE* town meddling in an inappropriate way

(my planned ending if town won was going to be that we'd get angry at town for trying to get back together, firmly say that the divorce was For The Best, but agree that we should keep our party planning team going)
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by jimbobmacdoodle »

Thanks all for game, and especially Sabrar and Madge for modding. Flavour was fun!

I know I technically won, although I don't really feel like that was the case. It's a shame that Zeniba was able to successfully recruit me that last night, as I was still clinging onto a last-ditch (albeit probably undeserved) town win.

@Zeniba, re this:
Zeniba wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:11 am About 16 hours after Day Start - jimbobmacdoodle made a gross post discussing modkills:
Sorry if that was a negative for you. I don't usually support modkills, as it ruins the game, in my opinion, and indeed I didn't even when I made that post. This was me thinking that a Cult win was inevitable if you only posted an action and trying to think through ways around it. I wasn't seriously suggesting it.

After making my post with my watcher/tracker results, I realised later that I should have tried some sort of gambit, and just lied about either a) being a cult doctor, or b) unrecruitable, in the hope of steering Zeniba's recruit one way or the other. Unfortunately, I didn't think about this initially, so by the time I did, I'd already claimed, with very little room to make false claims. Even had I, I don't know which decision I'd have made, nor whether it would have actually made a difference. A small part of me thought we were both recruitable, so claiming to be unrecruitable was throwing away a potential cult win if Seven was successfully recruited. Oh well.

Meanwhile, my early game reads were not great, given I had wam as towniest and TSS high up there too. I never did trust moody or bessie though...
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

Seven wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:06 am
somitomi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:19 pm I'm gonna kill Seven though.
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what did i do
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

@Zeniba I didn't want you playing under the impression that I didn't know who you were as it could lead to me catching you as scum due to insider meta-knowledge you weren't aware that I had. For example, in your intro post you immediately claimed before catching up, which I didn't think an experienced town person would do. So to give you the chance to save face and reframe your approach with the knowledge that I was aware that you were experienced (and who you are specifically), I wanted to immediately indicate that. Additionally, I did so publically as it felt like insider knowledge, and I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same playing field while at the same time maintaining your pseudo-anonymity if you so chose.

Also, note that I used publically available information to communicate this to you, and so I do not believe such falls under the classification of 'code' as used in mafia games. I've outlined the differences between code and crumbing here and elaborated on here.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Zeniba »

Seven wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:02 am @Zeniba I didn't want you playing under the impression that I didn't know who you were as it could lead to me catching you as scum due to insider meta-knowledge you weren't aware that I had. For example, in your intro post you immediately claimed before catching up, which I didn't think an experienced town person would do. So to give you the chance to save face and reframe your approach with the knowledge that I was aware that you were experienced (and who you are specifically), I wanted to immediately indicate that. Additionally, I did so publically as it felt like insider knowledge, and I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same playing field while at the same time maintaining your pseudo-anonymity if you so chose.

Also, note that I used publically available information to communicate this to you, and so I do not believe such falls under the classification of 'code' as used in mafia games. I've outlined the differences between code and crumbing here and elaborated on here.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by somitomi »

Seven wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:32 am @somi ??
I was just salty about you hammering me after arguing all day that yeeting me wasn't the best idea. On a related note, sorry my one blip of activity was spent on raking you over the coals for Boom, I really don't know how to read you.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

somitomi wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:25 am
Seven wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:32 am @somi ??
I was just salty about you hammering me after arguing all day that yeeting me wasn't the best idea. On a related note, sorry my one blip of activity was spent on raking you over the coals for Boom, I really don't know how to read you.
Ah, I switched at the last moment because townBessie seemed dead set on eliminating you so I didn't think my elimination would have provided the fuel for reevaluation as I'd have hoped for. And since Laser town came out with a strong town read on me, I figured I had a better chance of living through to a scum elimination than I previously had.

Also no apologies necessary! You were completely right that my reasoning was flawed, and I did of course fork up shooting Boom. Ideally, I would have liked to have saved the shot for later but I thought me being eliminated D3 was almost inevitable so I was feeling pressured to make a decision early.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Suzaku »

Oh well, another loss racked up. I do seem to make a bit of a habit of it.

Congrats Zeniba on the win, and good game to all else.

Massive thanks to Madge and Sabrar for modding, and double thanks to Madge for the flavour.

Only thing left is a question to wam/moody - WHY ME?!
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by The Snide Sniper »

Zeniba, I'm sorry, if I had known I could get a replacement I probably wouldn't have roleclaimed.

Also, I find it funny that the zomie ended up becoming a vampire.
Zeniba wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:30 am My impression when thinking over the role was that it was probably more optimal to recruit as late as possible.
Yeah, the hiding and passive rez abilities made it seem like the cult was supposed to hold off on recruiting.

Madge and Sabrar, I note that the Jarylo pic is kinda NSFW; I would appreciate it if you didn't send that sort of content in PMs.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by boomfrog »

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 amA small part of me thought we were both recruitable, so claiming to be unrecruitable was throwing away a potential cult win if Seven was successfully recruited. Oh well.
This gets a frowny face from me. Play to your current win condition to the best of your ability.

@7en, I can't find the quote now, but you I was surprised when you said it didn't seem like I was trying to get moody yeeted sincerely. I think my persuasive power is reduced since I was RL busy most of the final day of that Day. It felt like trying to defend 3DSNinja in his first game, or trying to defend synchronicity. I was 95%+ sure that the player was town, but no one else would believe me. Every time I've been that confident I've been right. It's frustrating how much less persuasive I am when I'm not trying to be manipulative.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by jimbobmacdoodle »

boomfrog wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:10 pm
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 amA small part of me thought we were both recruitable, so claiming to be unrecruitable was throwing away a potential cult win if Seven was successfully recruited. Oh well.
This gets a frowny face from me. Play to your current win condition to the best of your ability.
I mean, if I'd even suspected that Seven was unrecruitable, I would have been all over claiming unrecruitable in a desperate effort to direct the recruit, if it had occurred to me early enough. I probably should have spent more time thinking about how to deal with the cult leader before setting up the hammer, and even pushed for a No Elim (forcing moody to kill Zeniba or potentially lose or risk a Cult victory). Oh well.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

boomfrog wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:10 pm @7en, I can't find the quote now, but you I was surprised when you said it didn't seem like I was trying to get moody yeeted sincerely. I think my persuasive power is reduced since I was RL busy most of the final day of that Day. It felt like trying to defend 3DSNinja in his first game, or trying to defend synchronicity. I was 95%+ sure that the player was town, but no one else would believe me. Every time I've been that confident I've been right. It's frustrating how much less persuasive I am when I'm not trying to be manipulative.
Yeah, this seems to be a common problem I have with reading you. From Midnight Ops:
Xivii, post: 24009647, member: 123891 wrote: Boom the thing is, it doesn't feel like you have any drive to find scum. It's like you're just along for the ride. You only have town reads. Who is the scum team?
Xivii, post: 24009477, member: 123891 wrote:
BoomFrog, post: 24009104, member: 462677 wrote: Feels like we are getting this wrong. Doesn't it...
*doesn't do anything about it*

Vote: Boom

Let's end this.
Overlapping with this, it also often seems to me that you have more information than you should have, I keep forgetting that you're simply just the ultimate human/genius/dog/frog.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by LaserGuy »

Shout outs:

heuristically_alone: Sorry for the early misyeet on you. I hope you're able to play more next time.

Seven: You did a really outstanding job repatriating your slot. Despite going back and forth on you for the entire game, I'm glad I did figure you out correctly in the end.

moody7277: Very impressive game! Even right up till I was eliminated I still felt like there was a decent chance you were Town.

jimbob: You played a very solid and effective game. Your analysis were extensive and thorough and I liked that you always were willing to push back against consensus positions and easy yeets.

the snide sniper
: You did very well for your first time playing, especially in a challenging scum role in a difficult setup. I'm really impressed that you were willing to go all in on faking results and really threw us for a loop and probably helped a lot in your overall victory.

Zeniba: Thanks for replacing in! I think you played solidly and did what you needed to secure the victory. I would be interested in playing with you again and getting to see more of your style.

bessie: You did a really great job in a difficult role. I don't think at any point I thought you might be survivor (or really, scum at all), and was genuinely convinced that you had some sort of result implicating Seven/jimbob.

laserguy: You didn't get misyeeted as Town on D1 for once.

BoomFrog: I found myself missing not having you around later in the game as I felt your influence probably would have been a pretty big benefit to Town. I think this is probably one of the first games I've played with you where I had you pegged as Town early and never really wavered from it. I still am at a loss at how you ended up dead by friendly fire.

wam: Very nice game! You and moody did a very good job of keeping Town off balance and staying ahead of us. I think in a lot of scenarios you guys would have ended up rolling us easily.

somitomi: I wish I'd seen a little more from you this game. I think when you had time and energy to play your posts were very solid, but you had other things going on and I think your low activity hurt you this time around. Or maybe you've just been playing so much scum recently you forgot how to play Town :mrgreen:

patzer: Nice playing with you! I hope you'll play again sometime. I think this was a difficult setup to come back to after many years off, so don't feel too bad about getting misyeeted early on.

suzaku: Very solid townie game, you had great thoughts and analysis all the way through.

Madge and Sabrar: Thanks to both of you for running this unique and creative setup! The flavor was brilliant all the way through, and you both did a really good job managing the game and keeping things going. I think for a setup this complicated, the balance was very solid. I was never really certain which way things were going to go or which faction was going to win, and felt like everyone had pretty decent chances with good play.

One thing I was thinking about that might be nice if you ever run something like this in the future (particularly the resurrection part) may be to have some methods to interact with dead players. Something like a Forensic Cop that can check the alignment of a dead player, a Medium who can send messages to dead players, or an Undertaker who can permanently kill someone who is already dead. Or even just allow us to vote for a dead player to perma-flip them in the Day phase. I don't think it's necessarily needed for balance reasons (as I said, I think the balance was about as good as could be reasonably done in a setup like this), just more as a way to make those players somehow still accessible while they're dead so we don't end up in situations where someone is yeeted early then stuck for 3-4 day phases without being resolved.
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

Regarding the setup, I'm guessing I'm an odd one out here, but I actually really enjoyed the resurrection mechanic. I thought I would hate it, but I didn't mind the flip obscurity. It made for an interesting puzzle and for me it would be fun to try again with some adjustments. I think having at least one third-party added to the fun, the antisocial survivor in particular. Though I don't think cult fits cohesively with a resurrection game. Cults are difficult enough to play against, so I think the ability for them to revive could end up being frustrating. On the other end, town being informed of the cult number despite the cult leader's ability to resurrect didn't mesh well since we knew what they were. That being said, I do very much agree with having the number of cultists known or of declaring when alignment changes occur in a non-resurrection cult game. Also, again, I do think multiple factions added to the fun of this game. Perhaps if another resurrection game is to be held, instead of a cult there could be another mafia faction?

Some other thoughts: mafia seem way superpowered to me with that recruit kill and their other abilities. Cult seems pretty strong too. I'm surprised neither faction used their recruiting. I think as mafia I would have had the recruiter bus and recruit, and as cult I would have done this perpetually.

I think Town essentially lost after eliminating somi. Lost as in they could only win by scum not playing optimally I think. I could be wrong, this is one of those passing thoughts where I haven't actually ran through the scenarios.

Anyway, I was overall impressed with how well this game worked considering the premise: cult + resurrection + survivor! And Sabrar is a genius for making it all work. Madge, your flavor writing skills are next level. So fun.

Edit: Ninjad by Laser
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by Seven »

Mini Shoutouts

Bessie, had you not been night killed I definitely think you would have had this in the bag. Brava.

Boom, you didn't deserve to be shot. So sorry! But you're right, if you did end up being scum it would have been great. I couldn't hold to the policy of just letting you do your thing until Day 3 because the lack of flips and the pressure of my elimination, so eliminating a possible scumBoom seemed to me at the time like the best thing I could do before going out.

Jim, glad to play with you again! Also glad we got to be town buds for a day.

Heury, why did you think your role was bad? Also, were you intentionally mirroring your WWZ play or was it incidental?

Laser, I think I've finally figured out a way to read you! Will test this hypothesis in the next few games...

Moody, also glad to play with you again! You should join our discord server!

Paz, I feel so bad for being so tunneled on you. Though I guess we were both set on one another weren't we

Plytho, taking care of your children, running a family instead of playing mafia? Where are your priorities man?

Somi, seriously one of my favorite people to play with. Please don't apologize for playing at pace you enjoy

Sniper, well played, you seemed very townie to me all game.

Suzaku, nice to play with you for the first time. Solid play. I appreciate your synopses! Also thank you for seeing the good in me when everyone else had condemned me as scum.

Vicarin, where are you? Why did you leave the discord?

Wam, always a joy. Finally, a fresh mafia game for me to assimilate into your meta log.

Zeniba, あなたが禅をなれる前に、あなたはカップを空にしなければなりません。
LaserGuy wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:02 am One thing I was thinking about that might be nice if you ever run something like this in the future (particularly the resurrection part) may be to have some methods to interact with dead players. Something like a Forensic Cop that can check the alignment of a dead player, a Medium who can send messages to dead players, or an Undertaker who can permanently kill someone who is already dead. Or even just allow us to vote for a dead player to perma-flip them in the Day phase. I don't think it's necessarily needed for balance reasons (as I said, I think the balance was about as good as could be reasonably done in a setup like this), just more as a way to make those players somehow still accessible while they're dead so we don't end up in situations where someone is yeeted early then stuck for 3-4 day phases without being resolved.
This for sure!
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

maybe i should RELEASE THE EMAILS that me and sabrar exchanged when we were plotting, i am so glad he didn't let me have my way on a lot of issues lol
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Re: Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

Post by madge »

this was my first email to sabrar with ideas:
Yes, resurrection has to be done properly. I think it'll probably be a way to get through the fact we won't have a lot of players, in all likelihood. I have asked on the discord how many we might expect.

First rule of resurrection: no role reveals until someone is completely dead (or maybe until the end), but we'll have to tell the players when it's Lylo and whatnot as a result.

Here are my crazy ideas so we see what sticks:

We obviously want a cult, who will be vampires. Vampire bites the victim. Victim dies. Victim rises the next day as a vampire. Only the original vampire can bite. Original vampire is killed then all the others die. Vampires sparkle in the sunlight. (this changes win condition, which We Don't Like, but I think if people die we want their win condition to potentially change when they're resurrected, and if we are open about that, we might be okay).

This obviously brings out a vampire hunter character. Maybe instead of making all the vampires die when the original vampire dies, the vampire hunter is some sort of vig variant (maybe only kills vampires? maybe a vamp-cop + vig JOAT?), and if the original vampire is dead, the Hunter targets one vamp and kills the lot.

We want the mafia (zombies? IDK) to be able to resurrect a dead townie as a mafia.

We want a mafia player to be resurrected as a townie, but we want them not to be able to dob on the other mafia. Perhaps we can make it like in one night ultimate werewolf, role PMs:

- you are a mafia goon. the mafia boss is Madge. while she is alive and on your side, all mafia players can use their powers in addition to the kill. when she dies, the mafioso who performs the kill cannot use their power. if she dies and is resurrected, she will be in witness protection and will become a member of the town *and* unkillable by you
- you are the mafia boss. you have goons who know who you are, but as the mafia boss, you are too important to know every little goon under your power, so you have no idea who they are. you win with them. your power is [blah].

obviously all the townies need to be cool creatures too. we need to have at least half of the res mechanics leaving the person on the same team (maybe a resurrector power?)

anyway that's a bunch of random assorted ideas. i hope some of them appeal to you!

i then campaign for the possibility of mafia turning town:
Do we even want a cult? What about a SK who recruits a minion? We can even make the minion know they are an SK minion. Making the SK/mini a mini-mafia. IDK if minion wins with town or wins with both town and SK. I guess winning with town and SK is not that big a bonus?

I agree that mafia turning town is risky, but I think if anyone can make it work, it's you. I now am going to make it my mission to convince you we should have a mafia turn townie. Here's my thoughts:
- mafia communicate indirectly, sending one message to each other per night via the mod, and voting on the kill. they are told that their communications will be sanitised to remove anything that's a feasible breadcrumb, and they will not be able to kill one another
- my "secret hitler" style mafia boss who doesn't know who her goons are: so when she dies and turns town, she can't give them any information (she maybe communicates to mafia goons via one message per night, as per above)
- mafia do not know each other's identity and cannot communicate until they target each other with their powers. once they make contact, they can't be res to town
- mafia know the names of only one other mafioso in their chain: say we have A->B->C->A. C dies first. When A dies, C is resurrected as town. C knows A was mafia, and can maybe reveal that if we don't have alignments flip. B is mafia and is unknown to C. If this is the case, though, town has been given a big numbers advantage during a late stage of the game, so B would probably have some sort of big power to compensate. (Conversely, if C dies then B dies, then B is resurrected as town). A->B->C->A can send each other PMs, but only in one way down the chain, and this is via the mod?

All of these require the mods to ferry messages, which sucks but oh well
later:
you have convinced me that scum not being able to co-ordinate is not fun. mafia->indie sounds fun. perhaps they become an SK who needs the mafia to win FIRST (doesn't win unless mafia wins first) and then kills the rest of the mafia? so the non-SK mafioso, who can then subtly throw his mates under the bus and try to get town to help vote them off. this *does* mean that town doesn't realise they've lost, though, which isn't fun either. then AGAIN, if the SK gets rid of the mafia, then town votes off the SK, then town hasn't definitively lost? then AGAIN, it's probably going to end up at 2v1, so maybe the mafia!SK basically becomes a mafia survivor?

love your thoughts on mid-day res. we won't guarantee a res, obviously, and it won't always be exactly halfway between. we should internally set a date/time for the res rather than doing it ad-hoc when we think activity is low for obvious reasons.

and let's do the modvoice cult number if we can fit a cult in, numbers/theme wise.

okay. should we get a theme?

Rebirth theme seems obvious. Phoenix. Apparently Dionysus and Osiris have rebirth stories. We could pepper the whole thing with stuff like that (do some off the wall stuff like someone can be New Coke?).

also i just had a horrid idea: birth-related role. the role would involve something graphic with being pregante and being about to shoot a baby out. idk the mechanics.

i think then we should probably put in sign-ups and see how we go for numbers so we can design and balance? or should we have a skeleton of say 7 roles that we can add to if we get more?
and as it finally came together:
More thoughts, basically here's a list of every role I can think of:
Masons? Do we want to have a 'medium' who can talk to dead people who are still eligible to be resurrected?
Resurrector role: We prob need one, on each side. How to work/balance? Should we require all mafioso to forgo their actions for an evening in order to resurrect one player (once per game)?
PGO: Prob not
Bulletproof would be thematically logical? Or too much pile up with all the reses?
Doc? see bulletproof above
Bus Driver bad idea, let's not redirect anything, let's also tell players no redirectors. Alignment changes are bad enough.
Jailkeeper?
Forensic investigator? (was thinking of making it tell everyone who has ever visited a dead player; could be very swingy especially if most roles don't visit)
Cult deprogrammer required I think.
RBer maybe?
Tracker/Watcher?
Vig
Judge (may call for a revote once per game, IDK if this is fun or not?)
Cop: needed. should be v. explicit: "At the time you investigated [during Night N], $PLAYER was $ALIGNMENT", with alignment being town/mafia/cult/independent(?)
Cop variant: cop must target two people. one to be detected, one to receive the result. allows scum to lie. probably only interesting in niche cases and just creates paranoia otherwise, paranoia better sown by the alignment change problems.

Found this role in a list online. Sounds interesting, maybe fun for town? IDK:
Barbie Girl - Kisses a player at night, sending them to the Barbie World. That player's role is reversed (protect kills, kill protects, etc) Only one player may be kissed at a time.

Another one:
Hooker - Mafia-aligned. Kisses a person each night. That person has to vote on whom the Hooker tells them to or they die. The host tells the target who to vote for anonymously.


General thought: Should we give everyone a JOAT-lite? Like, give them their main power, but they have a one-shot of some other power each?


ROLES DEPOSITORY:
Phoenix: Has a weak power. Can self-kill to res after 1 day/night cycle and has strong power. We will tell what the strong power is exactly, how long they are dead for exactly, etc.
Captain Jack Harkness: Mechanic TBD
Elenor Ripley: Mechanic TBD
Zombie: eating brains, so roleblock the person the *next* night maybe and have their power to use the next night? while simultaneously eating a brain?

not sure if that is interesting, but let that be a lesson that the pizzazz posse was maybe not the best faction to have win
she/her
Plug: my vampire romance novel is finished!
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